HHO hypothesis / observations /experiment

[moon161]

So, what is the HHO hypothesis? I do not kid or hate when I ask this.

[fpmbsdca]

So, what is the HHO hypothesis? I do not kid or hate when I ask this.

So what is the HHO hypothesis you are asking about? There is a thread section discussing this topic, but I do not understand what pypotheses you are referring to.

[moon161]

I bet if I stand on a chair and put a stool on the countertop, that I can get to the cookie jar on top of the refrigerator. That's a hypothesis.

Another hypothesis would be: I bet if I add .05 mole H2 per mole air to the rich fuel/air charge typical of a spark IC engine (say 1.1 times the fuel needed to react with all of the 02 in the charge) that my brake-specific fuel consumption will be halved. This added power will more than offset the additional shaftwork and energy losses involved in electrolysis of water used to supplement the combustion charge.

This could be tested without incredible difficulty.

I was wondering if there was basic operating hypothesis behind the use of HHO/Browns gas/Hydrogen generators with automotive engines, or similar.

[fpmbsdca]

I bet if I stand on a chair and put a stool on the countertop, that I can get to the cookie jar on top of the refrigerator. That's a hypothesis.

Another hypothesis would be: I bet if I add .05 mole H2 per mole air to the rich fuel/air charge typical of a spark IC engine (say 1.1 times the fuel needed to react with all of the 02 in the charge) that my brake-specific fuel consumption will be halved. This added power will more than offset the additional shaftwork and energy losses involved in electrolysis of water used to supplement the combustion charge.

This could be tested without incredible difficulty.

I was wondering if there was basic operating hypothesis behind the use of HHO/Browns gas/Hydrogen generators with automotive engines, or similar.


So why did you not ask that in the first place???

[moon161]

Why limit the reply by specifying it? I'm interested to see what people have to say, energy balance luddite that I am.

[electryc_monk]

luddite or industrialite...
curious or out of spite...
hobby or sport...
its all up for report.



HHO via electrolisys(sp) is very curious... this guy listed on CL out of Austin I think? Any who I enmailed with him a few times and he offered to give me a copy of his list of researched parts (stainless steel and glass etc. thats "suposedly better" then the PVC ones listed on ebay... he wanted a humble $30-50 for the parts list and locations to order the pieces... or some $300 for a fully assembled one with the product list... HE admitted to be making some $100 for his efforts per unit assembled and shipped.


So I guess here's my 'mad scientist side of the mind talking' :

Setup a engine with a bio-D main tank/ VO aux tank; my retro-engineeered "Condensator"; 1 micron bypass oil filter system; HHO system; solar film on windows and radiant barrier foil in roof of car; gear Venders Aux OD; straight pipe after turbo; chipped engine; skinned the belly of the entire vehicle (just like aircraft) for reduced friction; extended front bumper with sloped nose; lightened fenders and other metal panels to reduce the weight of vehicle (or really just compensate for the other accessories...).

did I forget anything?


On a serious note back to the topic... I've read alot of stuff on google-links and it appears rather user friendly to make just a concern for unstable storage or supposedly lacking/ under producing systems for the needed consumption from an I.C.E. or diesel engine at W.O.T. or anywhere after idle setting.

Did that actually make sense? Or did my dyslexic excitement get in the way again?

[moon161]

But what does it do besides bubble and suck amps? If it just comes down to feeling good, I can recommend micro financing instead, but to each their own.

[stiles]

Water is very molecularly stable. It takes a lot of energy to break the molecular bonds in water to free up hydrogen to burn.

Hydrogen itself is very light and has less energy by weight or volume than natural gas, propane, etc. You need a large volume of hydrogen to meaningfully improve the mileage of a gas or diesel fueled engine.

Automotive alternators do not supply enough amperage to generate this volume of hydrogen, and using a fuel-supplied engine to run an alternator to run a hydrogen generator produces layer after layer of friction and heat losses stacked upon each other. There is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine nor is there any engine that runs anywhere near 100% efficient.

Automakers have spent many tens of millions of dollars to develop hydrogen fueled cars (BMW, Honda, etc). If this worked in any meaningful way, they would all be doing it.

Bottom line: it doesn't work and can't work. The anode-in-a-jar may make a few tiny bubbles of hydrogen but it cannot make enough to make a difference.

[MrMoparMan]

Automakers have spent many tens of millions of dollars to develop hydrogen fueled cars (BMW, Honda, etc). If this worked in any meaningful way, they would all be doing it.


Aren't these are fuel cell cars (Electric), not IC.

[electryc_monk]

i guess I'm gonna have to try it after this weekend.... I've seen a few you tube(internal BS meter goes off and says"whait a second, you've often said be careful what you see and hear on youtube.")


now I've googled a few obvious words and found some .edu sites and figure its worth an experiment... after all I'm talking to returantsa to collect their used fryer grease... what other experiements am I willing to tinker with?

I'm very curious as to the runctionality of a hydrogen powered lawnmower... (admits referencing Youtube again) there's this couple of guys who appear to be the philosophical parallel to a linux.org moderator and friend videotaping their experiments with hydrogen systems...


but what do I know? (shruggs shoulders)

[Clipper]

Bottom line: it doesn't work and can't work. The anode-in-a-jar may make a few tiny bubbles of hydrogen but it cannot make enough to make a difference.

Uhhh....with all due respect, Stiles, you have some profound misperceptions.

You need a large volume of hydrogen to meaningfully improve the mileage of a gas or diesel fueled engine.

No, in fact, you don't.
Perhaps you should view this thread:
http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10363&page=3


Automakers have spent many tens of millions of dollars to develop hydrogen fueled cars (BMW, Honda, etc). If this worked in any meaningful way, they would all be doing it.


I think you might need a lesson in history and geopolitics.
Ever see a movie called "Who Killed the Electric Car?"
Here's a YouTube link:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9vD33UMAtBY

[HarryN]

This is a new variation on an old scam - it is called a perpetual motion machine. My son almost fell for this as well.

There is a lot of power in your car battery, and it can make a lot of H2 in the right setup - but, that energy comes from the engine turning the alternator. Net energy is negative.

A good tune up, some synthetic oil, and a set of good tires will have real actual improvement and cost less.

Of course, there is always WVO. :)

[john_galt]

Does it work even better if you wear a Q-ray bracelet?

[Clipper]

This is a new variation on an old scam - it is called a perpetual motion machine. My son almost fell for this as well.

There is a lot of power in your car battery, and it can make a lot of H2 in the right setup - but, that energy comes from the engine turning the alternator. Net energy is negative.

Does it work even better if you wear a Q-ray bracelet?

You guys read this thread?
http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11277

[jonbyrd]

Car that run on water fuel has the following uses:

1. It works on both gas and diesel powered cars.
2. More fuel efficiency.
3. It works on plain tap water

Combination of biomass and coal is Methanol. Methanol is also made of natural fuel, as it is cheaper. Methanol is poisonous and harmful to the skin. Methanol contains only one chemical, whereas gasoline contains many chemicals. The fire that breaks out due to Methanol is not viewable in bright sunlight. These are some of the disadvantages of Methanol. Experts say Methanol is good for fuel cell cars. Finally, Ethanol is also an alternate method to save fuel.

<a href="http://www.waterfuelkit.net">free tips on alternative for fuel</a>

[mcbg]

I know a guy that put one on his 6.0 powerstroke and said it boosted the fuel economy to 16 from 10mpg. I dont really know anything other than what he says and I see. He just added a second water cup thing(reactor?) and is testing it out.
When the truck and hydrogen system are running it puts out quite a bit of gas.(think like small aquarium pump- for each one)

He plans on selling($100?) them when he get the kinks out, i may get one.
if i do i will post here.

[DieselBurps]

If you think about it, it makes sense. People have been using propane and cng in diesels for a while to make extra power and get better mileage from their diesel. If using a little power from the alternator to generate a gas that burns cleanly and helps make the combustion more complete, it's quite possible that it does improve the performance in both power and economy.

Hey - can you tell us more about that 6.0 PSD that was getting 10 mpg? There are some other PSD owners that might be interested in that... :eek:

[Inspect2020]

If you think about it, it makes sense. People have been using propane and cng in diesels for a while to make extra power and get better mileage from their diesel. If using a little power from the alternator to generate a gas that burns cleanly and helps make the combustion more complete, it's quite possible that it does improve the performance in both power and economy.

Thank you DieselBurps. This is exactly what I was planning on posting. The HHO is only a supplement to increase efficiency. The big question is, does it produce anywhere near the improvement that some claim?

[DieselBurps]

The big question is, does it produce anywhere near the improvement that some claim?
That's going to require a lot of experimentation to answer. There's not much standardization on HHO devices. Something built efficiently may need an ammeter and some variable resistance to allow adjustment of the amps used to power the vehicle. The bigger the engine, the more gas that needs to be generated - and the great draw on the alternator. My bet is that an oversized alternator along with a big and efficient HHO generator could be combined to do pretty well - bit the same generator may kill the charging system of a VW or a Benz. It would be nice to gather some information on HHO devices in vehicles - including engine size, amps used and mileage.

I've got too many projects going on right now, but once I tame them down and get back to work on my Chevy, my goal is to outfit it with a 200 amp alternator and install 1 or 2 HHO generators that can be configured to use ~ 50 amps.

[Kroni]

If you need electricity to produce the HHO gas and you are using a petro powered engine driven alternator to produce this electricity and nothing is 100% efficient, wouldn't you have a net loss when everything is said and done? You need to burn more fuel to spin the alternator, which is under a greater load due to electrical draw to produce a gas that will help improve how well the engine burns its fuel/air charge, right?

If it actually works I am all for it, but I am of the belief that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

If someone actually builds one of these please post the outcome.

Thanks

[Inspect2020]

If you need electricity to produce the HHO gas and you are using a petro powered engine driven alternator to produce this electricity and nothing is 100% efficient, wouldn't you have a net loss when everything is said and done? You need to burn more fuel to spin the alternator, which is under a greater load due to electrical draw to produce a gas that will help improve how well the engine burns its fuel/air charge, right?

Ok Big Round Numbers
If you engine is turning 1/3 of the fuel energy to crank rotation, 1/3 to water and oil heat and 1/3 to exhaust heat. Assuming your alternator were 100 percent efficient and the creation of HHO is 100 percent efficient then if you were to use HHO as your only fuel it would take 3 times the HHO to run you engine as you would be able to produce.
Very simple, will not work ever.

But that is NOT what we are talking about. What we are discussing is if you introduce a small amount of HHO maybe 1 percent (maybe a lot less ?) and if that HHO introduced into the engine will cause a more complete burn to take place with your conventional fuel and instead of 1/3 of the fuel going to crank rotation say now 1/2 does. What would happen to your MPG?
Will this actually work? Some say yes. Some of us say cool idea lets see some real numbers.

[Kroni]

I'm not against it, I just want to see some actual numbers.

I am not saying this in a malicious way, but why haven't you or the other proponets of this, one this post, built one and put it to the test yet?

A friend of mine has purchased the Waterforgas books and let me borrow them. It should only take an afternoon to built one of these HHO generators. Instead of telling me what it SHOULD do, how about telling me what it ACTUALLY does.

Again, I am using no sarcasm or disrespect.

Thanks

[Inspect2020]

I'm not against it, I just want to see some actual numbers.

I am not saying this in a malicious way, but why haven't you or the other proponets of this, one this post, built one and put it to the test yet?

A friend of mine has purchased the Waterforgas books and let me borrow them. It should only take an afternoon to built one of these HHO generators. Instead of telling me what it SHOULD do, how about telling me what it ACTUALLY does.

Again, I am using no sarcasm or disrespect.

Thanks
Kroni,
I did not say I was a proponent. I like you am very interested in more information. Or actually reliable information. I have several things that I am tinkering with right now and HHO is not one of them. I will be sitting on the sideline watching this for a little while yet. The purpose of my post was not to make a claim as to how much fuel I'm saving but to answer the "no such thing as perpetual motion" statement that has the repeatedly crept into every HHO thread.

[Greg]

Very simple, will not work ever.


The "perpetual motion" issue does not apply here. We are talking about the amount of energy it takes to process a raw material into fuel. The energy overhead to get a gallon of gas from the wellhead to the tank of your car is 6%. Choose your units of energy measurement (btu, watts, hp) and for every 6 units spent to process crude oil into gas, you get 100 units of gas. (or maybe it's 94). Depending on who is providing the information, and their agenda, processing corn into ethanol has an overhead of 70% to 125%. So, worst case is that for every 125 units of energy you spend, you get 100 units back. Wind and solar fall somewhere in the middle of those two extremes.

So one question is, how many units of energy does it take to create a unit of energy out of water?

The another question would be, is there a symbiosis when HHO is mixed with other automotive fuels in the combustion chamber that causes 1 + 1 to = 3?

[Kroni]

Inspect2020

That's cool, I have a lot of pans in the fire right now as well, my photovoltaic system having priority at the moment. This thread has gotten a little heated here and there and it is getting larger and larger with some people claiming it works and others saying it won't. I just looking to hear from any of the people who "CLAIM" this works to prove to me that it works. I don't want theroy or blind faith.

To all of you proponents of HHO, I am offically calling you out, put up or shut up!!

Well, I don't want to sound to harsh, but if you (proponets of HHO) are so sure this works, then PLEASE build one, post during the build and keep us informed, and test it. Then give us the legitimate outcome and put all of this debating to rest.

[DieselBurps]

To all of you proponents of HHO, I am offically calling you out, put up or shut up!!

Well, I don't want to sound to harsh, but if you (proponets of HHO) are so sure this works, then PLEASE build one, post during the build and keep us informed, and test it. Then give us the legitimate outcome and put all of this debating to rest.
Then you won't mind this sounding harsh... Unless you are putting up some money so that they get some benefit from doing your homework for you, I think you can expect them to tell you to shut up as well - if they don't just ignore you completely. Stamping your feet and whining that nobody is doing your homework for you is going to get you squat for sympathy. If you want it handed to you, expect to pay someone else for their time.

It's a lot like a WVO system - ask someone about their system and they may tell you a lot about it. Tell them to design and build you one and they will most likely just walk away. There are other forums for HHO information - ones that are relatively active and informative. If you cannot be bothered to find your own information, perhaps you should stick to what you have time for. They are posting real numbers - the issue is that everyone has different variations of HHO generators, they are using different electrolytes, various control mechanisms - it's not a mature "experiment" yet. EVERYTHING seems to be varying.

For everyone else - complete combustion is the goal - this may be something that helps us all out with the possibility of carbon deposits. Better mileage is a nice side effect, but for most of us we aren't paying much for the fuel anyway, so longevity is our focus. Sure - some folks may laugh and say "but I have a good system that properly heats the oil and doesn't allow for carbon deposits" - but anyone with a clue won't idle for prolonged amounts of time on diesel or WVO... Especially WVO. I'm sure we are all pretty curious if running HHO in our engines will help mitigate the possibility of those carbon deposits forming at all engine speeds - including idle.

[Kroni]

My entire point of my previous thread is to stop the agrument whether or not HHO actually works. I have researched it and it doesn't cost more that about $20 to build, so if someone is swearing that it works but won't drop the $20 to back up thier statements, then mabey they shouldn't be so bold about it.

I am not stamping my feet nor am I whining. I have not tried this because after the research I have done I don't believe that it will work, BUT I am not posting HHO WILL NOT WORK. If I ever do experiment with this I will be more than happy to share my data with all of you. Just like with WVO, I have emailed about 6-8 people my entire set-up and just this weekend I had a person that I had never met before, come to my house and I showed him exactly how I built my filtering system, where to get the supples I used and answered all the questions he asked about my filtering and Frybrid system.

I never asked anyone to build ME an HHO system, I only asked has anyone have any proof to back up thier claims.

I do think that HHO is interesting and the posts and videos that SteveS has posted are great and informative. I hope that someone does figure this out and makes it work. I just can't see a point in a thread full "it works" "no it doesn't"

[DieselBurps]

My entire point of my previous thread is to stop the agrument whether or not HHO actually works. I have researched it and it doesn't cost more that about $20 to build, so if someone is swearing that it works but won't drop the $20 to back up thier statements, then mabey they shouldn't be so bold about it.
For $20 you get a low grade bomb under your hood. Literally. Without some care in the design, you'll most likely put too many amps into it, boil the water - and eventually have a serious problem. Most of the folks sharing their knowledge on the subject at hhoforums.com seem to put a heck of a lot more thought, design, experimentation and money into their setups. I think I trust their research more than yours (so far)!

I am not stamping my feet nor am I whining. I have not tried this because after the research I have done I don't believe that it will work, BUT I am not posting HHO WILL NOT WORK.
Ok, but it sure did sound like it. Various people have have different results. hit that forum and read for a while. It's pretty interesting stuff.

If I ever do experiment with this I will be more than happy to share my data with all of you. Just like with WVO, I have emailed about 6-8 people my entire set-up and just this weekend I had a person that I had never met before, come to my house and I showed him exactly how I built my filtering system, where to get the supples I used and answered all the questions he asked about my filtering and Frybrid system.
Sure, same goes for many of us - but most of us here are behind the curve and still doing the research. How long was it between when you first heard about WVO and when you burned your first tank? Odds are you did some homework in between... I think most of us are still there - doing the homework.

I never asked anyone to build ME an HHO system, I only asked has anyone have any proof to back up thier claims.
It's been done - you just aren't looking in the right place. There isn't much of a compilation of vehicle types and amps, lpm and serious mileage tests. Not yet.

I do think that HHO is interesting and the posts and videos that SteveS has posted are great and informative. I hope that someone does figure this out and makes it work. I just can't see a point in a thread full "it works" "no it doesn't"
Yeah - but so far you are the "no it doesn't" poster! I think most of us on the WVO sites are pretty new to this and you are asking for information we don't have. I've got parts on order and I've done a lot of reading - that's it so far. I'm pretty convinced the only way this WON'T work is if your engine is already so efficient by design that increasing the rate of combustion just won't help. For the rest - there are a lot of factors that need to be optimized in order to get the best gains - but the more fuel that is completely burned early in the combustion phase of ignition, the better.

[Kroni]

If you don't like what I have done for research, that's your opinion, I will, however take a look at the site you recommended. There may very well be many people who have performed this with good and bad results, but yet again, I am talking about the people on this site posting yes it does or no it doesn't without hard facts. Since I posted that I have only heard from you, mabey a better question is "is there anyone on this site that has performed this yet and what has been your outcome good or bad."

My opinion is that I am NOT the "no it doesn't" poster, I am the "don't boost it up or shoot it down until you've done it" poster.

I hope that you are successful in your experimentation with it and I hope that you post about it along the way. I will contiune to read about it and I would love to be able to help you or someone else who is experimenting with it if I can somehow.

PS I think I read up on WVO for somewhere around 6 months before I built my filtering system and another 2 months before I ordered my kit. The main reason why I have been so liberal with sharing my set-up with others is because there were times that I wished I knew someone who was doing this so that I could go to and see thier set up and clear a few hurdles. A picture is worth a thousand words, but hands on is worth a million.

[DieselBurps]

If you don't like what I have done for research, that's your opinion, I will, however take a look at the site you recommended.
Your $20 figure doesn't allow for high grade stainless steel - anything less tends to produce rusty water and require a lot of maintenance. I'm not sure if you can get just the plates for $20. You'll want to use a PWM controller to keep the voltage regulated - or you risk a nice thermal meltdown. A bubbler is a good idea, as is a check valve. Toss in fuses, a relay - you are way above $20.

There's definitely a lot of reading to do - or you can spend a lot of money rediscovering everything. Step one for me is to build an HHO generator that works and produces a good amount of gas per amp of power per minute, doesn't overheat - and runs for a few hours on the bench without problem.

PS I think I read up on WVO for somewhere around 6 months before I built my filtering system and another 2 months before I ordered my kit.
That's probably pretty close to average. I'm guessing it takes people that long to get going with HHO as well. This forum is pretty good with WVO, but HHO is something new for us all.

[Kroni]

Are you planning on using your HHO set up on a gasoline or diesel powered vehicle? If you are putting it on a diesel are you going to use a bubbler?

[DieselBurps]

Are you planning on using your HHO set up on a gasoline or diesel powered vehicle? If you are putting it on a diesel are you going to use a bubbler?
The Chevy is my target for the HHO setup. With the 2.73 gearing and the 5 spd, it should do pretty well on mileage anyway - but I'm hoping to make it do better. I've got to finish buttoning it up and start driving it. I'll most likely get it running and then start getting it ready for paint right away. The HHO system will go in and have to wait until the paint is finished. Yes, I'll be using a bubbler. If things work out well on the Chevy, I'll build a couple more for the Dodges.

[Kroni]

Will the added water in the intake charge cause a problem on the diesel engine? I realize its a small amount, but will it flash to steam before the fuel is injected and cause a "knock"?

On a side note, have you ever looked in to propane fumagation for a diesel? I know propane is a fossil fuel and can be hazardous to carry in a vehicle, but from what I have read it too helps to more throughly burn the fuel.

[DieselBurps]

Will the added water in the intake charge cause a problem on the diesel engine? I realize its a small amount, but will it flash to steam before the fuel is injected and cause a "knock"?

On a side note, have you ever looked in to propane fumagation for a diesel? I know propane is a fossil fuel and can be hazardous to carry in a vehicle, but from what I have read it too helps to more throughly burn the fuel.
Water/methanol is a common injection system added to diesels to add power, cool the intake and reduce EGTs. But - a bubbler done properly shouldn't put any additional water into the intake. Ok - maybe almost as much as the additional humidity from a rainy day.

Propane - not seriously. The Chevy project isn't really done for power - it's a toy. If I can bump the mileage we get out of it to something normally unreal for a pickup truck, I'll be ecstatic. Those Dodge's are scary fast without propane - it may get tough to keep the back tires hooked up if we add that much more power!

[Kroni]

Again, good luck with it, I will be reading the hhoforum site and thank you answering my questions. I will probably have more.

Those Dodge's are scary fast without propane - it may get tough to keep the back tires hooked up if we add that much more power!

By the way, a year or two ago I was watching on of the Speed channel programs and they chipped a 3500 Dodge Ram dually 4x4. The kit had a 6 position knob with 1 being the most economical and 6 the most power. When they were done they placed the switch on 6 and smoked the 4 back tires like it was a top fuel drag car! If I remember correctly then did it again in 4x4 and it was equally impressive!

[DieselBurps]

Again, good luck with it, I will be reading the hhoforum site and thank you answering my questions. I will probably have more.

I still have tons of questions - and I spent some time over the weekend digging out answers to another bunch of them already.

By the way, a year or two ago I was watching on of the Speed channel programs and they chipped a 3500 Dodge Ram dually 4x4. The kit had a 6 position knob with 1 being the most economical and 6 the most power. When they were done they placed the switch on 6 and smoked the 4 back tires like it was a top fuel drag car! If I remember correctly then did it again in 4x4 and it was equally impressive!
My wife's old '93 dually was bone stock before we put the new Lucas POD +70injectors in it. Afterwards, we could light up the back 4! I had a 12 sec corvette (street tires) that could spin the tires at 70 mph. As fast as it was, I watched a tape of a 97 Dodge dually doing an 11.6!!! Almost 3x as heavy and it would still smoke that corvette! Ok, not if there was a corner involved, but it's uncanny to see those trucks move like that.

Stuckey Racing is located only a few miles from my house. They are one of the fastest teams in diesel truck racing. My neighbor went to school with their driver. I'm hoping to see their truck make a few runs - and with any luck experience one!

[veggiesel]

All I know is that my son has a gas Dodge truck that was getting 15.2 mpg & he put a Hyzor unit I think it's called & improved his milage to 22.5 mpg over the same route. Also let it be know if you add lye to this water it helps break down the moleculer structure so that the small amout of energy going through the stainless lets off Hydrogen. So I have been told:D:D:D

[HarryN]

The propane idea is actually a reasonable way to test the idea / concept of the hydrogen addition. If we assume that the whole idea is to add a fuel with a high flame rate to the intake to promote improved combustion, than any of the gases, H2, methane, or propane should work (as a test)

IMHO, it would be easier to get a small tank of one of these gases and regulate it into the air cleaner, then to build up a full H2 electrolysis system from scratch just to learn. To be a really valid test, H2 would ideally be used.

If the boost in efficiency is really on the order of 25%, then the price of tank gas in the volume used is within reason even for normal use. It also eliminates many of the potential challenges associated with an installation, while allowing the driver to control the flow rate for optimum results.

If you have an acetylene torch, you could even use the regulators off of the tank. (not the oxygen one - that would be very bad) I probably would not try to use acetylene as the test gas for a variety of reasons.

On my dodge (mini) van, it has a pretty accurate meter for gas mileage - and it works under a variety of conditions to detect a 20 % change. If you are driving down a flat straight road in cruise control, and flip back and forth between hydrogen (or whatever gas) on and off, it should easily show up on the meter.