Has anyone seen Dana?

[cgoodwin]

He seems to have disappeared. Dana, come out and play!

Seriously though I had a rep from a fuel company at my shop yesterday offering to supply me with Biodiesel as well as meet my motor oil needs (I now sell almost 300 gallons of Biodiesel a week at $3.60 a gallon!).

In conversation the Veg Oil thing came up and we bgan to discuss dewatering, he seems to think that the only way to dewater was with a "Spray/vacuum" unit which atomized oil in a vacuum and the water boils out and is collected. He also mentioned a centrifuge. I told him that my system heated the oil to 130F for several hours and allowed any water vapor to escapt to the atmosphere and he said that heating did not work as the water just became emulsified.

He also began to go on about humidity in the air which struck me odd, the diesel in your tank is exposed to ambient humidity as are all other fuels, possibliy greater as the returning diesel is heated by the fuel system, then cools in the tank causing some condensation....

Any opinions? Is he misinformed? Anyone?

Chris

[akghound]

That is odd ... I was just out making cupel molds here at work and Dana came to my mind and I too realized that he is MIA. I hope he is OK. Ken

[cgoodwin]

That is odd ... I was just out making cupel molds here at work and Dana came to my mind and I too realized that he is MIA. I hope he is OK. Ken

Making molds made you think of Dana? Hope you are OK too... :-)

Chris

[akghound]

Yeah, I've been at this job for so long that it has become a mindless occupation. I work at a gold mine here in Montana melting down the gold. We make these molds by the hundreds, one at a time, and it has become so automatic that it allows my mind (whats left of it) to wander all over the place. I'm lucky to have a job like this where I can think about other things. I'm locked up for 10 hrs a day with security guards looking over my shoulder and cameras watching everywhere I go and every thing I do. There is a lot time in this job where I have to wait for the different stages of the process to complete. During these waits they let me hang around this computer. I was thinking of the filter plans I just bought from Dana and just how I am going to set up a "Filtration Station". I have tried a lot of different failed ways to easly pre-filter my oil. When I finally broke down and purchased Dana's plans I asked "What took me so long?" I'll soon be using more oil as I just setup a Listeriod Engine for power, we live off grid, and will be converting it to WVO asap. As you already know, I already run a 96 Cummins on WVO. Later, Ken

[Twanoh Tom]

Hey, I found Dana!! He just responded to my ad in Chris's "for sale" forum for a Honda trail bike and said he was planning a trip to the West Coast soon. Hope to get a chance to meet and compare notes with him.

[dana linscott]

Sorry to be gone for so long. Had a realy neat project come up. The only hithc was that I had to forgo two of these three.
1. Sleep
2. Responding to customers email.
3. Posting (or even looking at) the various forums I post on.

Since I could not forgo customer service (Chris knows what I am talking about) the other two lost out.

I have been waiting to even have a beer until I reached the top or the Frybrid forum (working from the bottom) and if you will excuse me I will get one now..having reached the top.

Ahhhhh..That's better.

Chris you said:
In conversation the Veg Oil thing came up and we bgan to discuss dewatering, he seems to think that the only way to dewater was with a "Spray/vacuum" unit which atomized oil in a vacuum and the water boils out and is collected. He also mentioned a centrifuge. I told him that my system heated the oil to 130F for several hours and allowed any water vapor to escapt to the atmosphere and he said that heating did not work as the water just became emulsified.

While not the "only way" to dewater a heated vacuum dewatering does so really well. This is how it is "done" commercially (where cost is no object and efficiency is king) and I have fabricated and tested scaled down units. They work well...but are much more complicated and expensive than any home user would want. Essentially they are a hot plate upon which oil is sprayed...in a vacuum. The hot dewatered oil is then whisked away while hot so it cannot pick up moisture as it cools..and the heat is transferred to incomming cold oil for efficiency. The vacuum is open to a condensor so water is continually being removed from it and pumped out. Like I say..complicated. If I had to dewater 10,000+ gal per day I would want on eof these. Otherwise...forget it.

But...Boiling water out of oil doesn't work well either. Since the first thing water does in heated oil is head for the bottom the mixture must be vigorously agitated to get the water to boiling temp..or the BOTTOM of the oil must reach greater than 100°C. Otherwise the water sinks to the bottom and stays there...unless disturbed by the convection currents of heat being applied to the bottom. In which case it just stays mixed well. Whic isn't "emuslified" but is probably what the rep was alluding to.

I have been refferred to as a "research freak" by some very good friends. I learned to read at 4 yrs. and have been focusing on one area of research or another for 45 years. The one reason I have friends that are as a lot very practical folks is I learned early on only preliminary research can be conducted from books (or more recently the internet)...the REAL research is "hands on". Whic is what I love to do..and what everything I make goes into...including the proceeds from my "how-to" files.

Got a littl eoff subject there.......3/4 of a beer and I am rambling....time to "tip over" and sleep soon. Very, very soon...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzz

[parmm]

One never, never, never puts hot liquid asphalt (over 300F) on top of water in a tank. The result is very very messy! Likely why one can not boil off the water.

[cgoodwin]

Dana,

what is your recommended method for dewatering?

I have been reading up on additives such as "Diesel 911" which claim to encapsulate suspended water, but most of the info available is from the manufacturer and is therefore, in my mind, suspect.

Chris

[madcat8000]

well i had a mechanic tell me last winter that a product called power service diseal(the red bottle) did the same thing. only there was no heat in my fuel filter so after a few hundred miles the water froze solid in the filter and left me on the side of the road in a -20 windchill. but perhaps in a heated system it would work to get the water out and to the filter collection bowl seeing as how it got a lot of water to my filter and left it there to freeze.

[dana linscott]

Dana,

what is your recommended method for dewatering?

I have been reading up on additives such as "Diesel 911" which claim to encapsulate suspended water, but most of the info available is from the manufacturer and is therefore, in my mind, suspect.

Chris

Prefilter particulates out, and hold at 80-90°F for 5-8 hrs then remove the oil from 8" off the bottom of the holding tank. The oil near the bottom will remain water rich until it has been held longer. Eventually the water will drop all the way to the bottom and show up as free water if held at that temp constantly.

Remember this about diesel fuel additives.

They are designed to work with diesel fuel.
They may work withy biodiesel..but expecting them to work with vegoil...is expecting a LOT.

Probably way too much. :rolleyes:

[cgoodwin]

Dana,

Please critique the following system I have in my garage:

80 gallon water heater, 240V run on 120V.
55 gal drum with a Ford F250 air filter element mounted in the top.

WVO is poured in the top of the 55 when hot at the pickup site (cook changes oil hot, pours hot oil into a 11" hole in the top, filter mounted below hole with plate on the filter bottom. Hot oil passes through filter and is filtered to +/- 30 microns). 12" from the bottom on one side is a hydraulic quick fitting. A hose is connected to this fitting and the oil pumped from the drum into a holding container is a pickup vehicle.

http://www.frybrid.com/images/drumtop.jpg

Oil is taken to shop. The water heater has 4 valves, a 110V pump, 2 hoses and a 5 micron filter as illustrated.

http://www.frybrid.com/images/pump.jpg

The suction line from the unit is placed in the tank full of VO from the pickup.
Valve D is open
Valve C is closed
Valve E is open (to vent)
Valve A is open
Valve B is closed
The pump is turned on and oil is drawn from the container and pumped into the heater.

Once the heater has been at temp for 8 hours
Valve D is closed
Valve C is open
Valve E is open (to vent)
Valve A is closed
Valve B is open
The fill nozzel is put in the vehicle tank and heated dewatered oil is pumped into the tank.

Water and sludge can be drained with the heater drain from time to time.

I have this setup in my shop and it has been working well, typically I fill it and turn it on, the next morning I empty the heated oil into a storage drum or fill my car.

Any comments?

Chris