Hello from a newbi

[plrod]

Just joined the ranks here. Will be picking up an 85 Merz 190d in a few weeks and am very interested in the conversion to use waste vegetable oil. Where does one obtain/purchase the instructions to do this mod?

Any members in the South Fla area frequenting the site?

Regards,

Pedro

[cgoodwin]

Instructions:

There are a thousand ways to skin a cat, 997 will work, 2 work well and one is right for you. Time do do your research.

There are basicly four commercial systems available in the US; FRYBRID you know where we are, Noeteric http://www.biofuels.ca/ , Greasecar www.greasecar.com (http://www.greasecar.com), and Greasel www.greasel.com (http://www.greasel.com)

Greasecar and greasel systems function on similar princibles, two tank systems which rely on heating the entire volume of fuel in the tank to injection temp (min 160F) before switching from diesel to VO. Neoteric makes some one tank kits which allow the user to run nothing but VO - this system in my opinion has issues but perhaps Neoteric can dispel them for you. The Frybrid system heats the VO in the lines and in the area of the tank from which fuel is drawn but relies on a final fuel heat exchanger to impart enough heat to inject. Since you do not have to wait for all 15 gallons of fuel to be heated you may switch to VO as soon as the engine is at temp. Frybrid also features a microprocessor to control the switch over and purge functions, has a warning buzzer and idiot lights (indicator lights showing the state of the system). All out components are built to the highest quality, aircraft aluminum tanks which pass SCCA specs, pressure tested high efficiency heat exchangers, microprocessor which is UL and avation rated, etc.

Issues with running VO: (see the R&D link on the frybrid site for research papers)

VO must be heated to a minimum of 160F to reduce its viscosity through thermal degradation to the point where it approaches that of diesel fuel, which the injectors were designed to spray. Translation: VO is 12 times thicker than diesel, heating it makes it thinner, as thin as diesel so the injectors can spray it properly.

If the engine is shut down and cools with VO in the injection system it becomes butter and the vehicle will not restart - so you need to flush or purge all VO from the fuel system before shut down.

If VO is injected at any temp into a cold engine it will stick to the cylinder walls and piston and become carbon destroying the engine.

So the two tank system was developed (seemingly in Norway during the second world war) this allows the engine to be started on diesel and run till hot, excess heat is used (via coolant) to heat the VO to injection temp then he fuel supply is switch from diesel to VO. Before shutting down the fuel supply is switched back to diesel for a sufficient time to allow the fuel system to refill with diesel and displace the VO so that the engine can be started again on diesel.

Members in your area:
See the "Connections" area.

Other resources:
"From the fryer to the fuel tank" by Tickell
Dana Linscott sells DIY plans at http://vegoilconversions.netfirms.com/
Fourm www.biodiesel.infopop.cc (http://www.biodiesel.infopop.cc)


Good luck and we are always happy to answer questions.

Chris
Frybrid

[vegdude]

Just want to make sure you do not misguide someone there. Both Greasel and Greasecar heat their tanks so that fuel will flow in cold conditions, it is NOT their primary source of heating nor do they it claim to be. I think most of the heat exchange in these kits takes place in the fuel line heat exchangers (hoh or hih)and heated filters both offer. hate to see misinformation simply as self promotion!
bb

[cgoodwin]

Frankly I am insulted that you would accuse me of giving incorrect information as self promotion, it is an unfounded accusation. I regularily refer people to both Greasecar and Dana, I pay to host a forum where anyone can recommend any kit they like or discuss DIY systems without ever being asked "not to promote other products" and I freely take my time to give advice.


If my understanding of the kits is incorrect simply point it out and explain what you "Think" may be the design inetentions. Slandering me will do nothing except make you look a fool as my history here and on other forums will speak for itself.

You have posted here 4 times and all 4 have been attacks on what I have said or against those who have had issues with Greasecar systems? Why is that? Where is your constructive input? In one post at

http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?p=607#post607
You advise using RTV silocone to repair a manufacturing defect, odd as RTV has been shown to break down in VO (Greasel used to advise filling the Mercedes bolt with it, later withdrew the advise).

You have accused me of removing posts which never happened but you failed to respond when links to the post were given. You either work for Greasecar or are a very misguided individual with misplaced sense of loyalty.

Why don't you take your time to respond to this persons post? Or explain the various systems as you seem to have anough time to write unfounded accusations, surely you have enough time to post something constructive.

Maybe we should have a little look:

Lets start with the IP address for VEGDUDE: 141.154.187.144










Search results for: 141.154.187.44 Verizon Internet Services VIS-141-149 (NET-141-149-0-0-1 (http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=!%20NET-141-149-0-0-1)) 141.149.0.0 (http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=141.149.0.0) - 141.158.255.255 (http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=141.158.255.255)Verizon Internet Services VZ-DSLDIAL-SPFDMA-2 (NET-141-154-160-0-1 (http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=!%20NET-141-154-160-0-1)) 141.154.160.0 (http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=141.154.160.0) - 141.154.191.255 (http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=141.154.191.255)# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2005-02-16 19:10# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.





Now let's have a look at the emails I recieved from Greasecar:

Return-Path: <lee@greasecar.com>X-Original-To: cgoodwin@dial.pipex.comX-Envelope-To: cgoodwin@dial.pipex.comDelivered-To: cgoodwin@dial.pipex.comReceived: from uk2mxserver4-1.uk2.net (uk2mxserver4-1.uk2.net [83.170.64.216]) by addams.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27099E0001CA for <cgoodwin@dial.pipex.com>; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 22:19:41 +0000 (GMT)Received: from smtp.paconline.net ([66.51.160.60] helo=paconline.net) by uk2mxserver4-1.uk2.net with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ClaY0-0001E4-Uq for cgoodwin@goodwinmotorsport.com; Mon, 03 Jan 2005 22:19:33 +0000Received: from [141.154.187.144] (account lee@greasecar.com HELO Lee) by paconline.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.7) with ESMTP id 99691819 for cgoodwin@goodwinmotorsport.com; Mon, 03 Jan 2005 14:19:38 -0800Message-ID: <024e01c4f1e2$4f8cb1a0$1f02a8c0@Lee>From: <lee@greasecar.com>To: cgoodwin@goodwinmotorsport.com




Well, well, well, Looks like little Lee at Greasecar is here on our forum posing as "Vegdude" writing a bunch of crap in disguise! And even better he is too fucking stupid to use a computer other than his work computer. What kind of an idots are you guys? I knew you were foolish but I never thought you would be this stupid. How do you like me now?

I withdrew from your forum for this kind of stupid childish crap and now you sneak in here under another name and write crap on this forum. Nothing constructive, just malicious crap. You know what Lee, you make Greasecar look bad and if Justin has any self respect he will fire you today.

Foolish, foolish boy.

By the way, you should have enough self respect to use your real name when you accuse someone of something, it is actually a right in this country to be allowed to face your accuser. You are a liar, a cheat, deceptive, stupid and are doing Greasecar a great disservice.

Christopher Goodwin
FRYBRID

[vegdude]

Hello,

Yes I posted from my Greasecar desk as a general forum user and biofuels enthusiast and hobbyist. I do not have internet at my home and use this computer after hours as a personal computer. I thought this was a public forum, and was unclear that reading and responding to posts was qualified as "spies and lies". While all other users are able to retain their anonymous identities by using internet 'handles' I have been exposed for the biofuel critic I am! Taboot,my place of work and e-mail information is made public while others can continue to post under fun names without disclosing personal info. I was unaware all personal details were required to be involved here. I am surprised to find that working at Greasecar renders my posts invalid and are suddenly subject to ridicule. Let me make clear that no one here at Greasecar asked me to come on to your site or post. As a driver of a vegetable oil powered car and person who has been interested in alternative fuels and websites pertaining to this information for several years I wanted to check out this forum and see what it was all about. I did not mean to offend, never used bad language or curse words, just wanted to post my $0.02 and opinions on matters. Yes my opinion is impartial, but so is yours no? If you are telling me I am unwelcome here then I will no longer post here.
-lee

[dana linscott]

OK Lee maybe Chris overreacted a little.

But you have to admit it looked kinda suspicious.
After all why do you feel the need to remain anonymous AND accuse Chris of nefarious intentions at the same time.

If I were Chris I would be pissed off too.
I critique Greasels misleading claims all the time...but don't do it anonymously. I think doing so has the appearance of taking a "cheap shot" since unless you are "caught" it appears someone with nothing to gain is providing the criticism. Quite a different situation than when someone who works for a competitor is anonymously and vigorously making accusations.

And considering that it appears the majority of your posts are not of so much a "discussion" nature as an accusatory one makes it appear that you only showed up to throw mud. I am sure that was not your intent.

I don't think anyone wants you to leave....but maybe you need to try to be a little less accusatory and a bit more informative when you do post.

[dana linscott]

Now let's get back to the subject here. It could be very useful to those considering what the differences are in the various "kits" available.

You said:

Just want to make sure you do not misguide someone there. Both Greasel and Greasecar heat their tanks so that fuel will flow in cold conditions, it is NOT their primary source of heating nor do they it claim to be. I think most of the heat exchange in these kits takes place in the fuel line heat exchangers (hoh or hih)and heated filters both offer. hate to see misinformation simply as self promotion!
bb

I have looked closely at both Greasel and Greasecar conversions and it appeared to me that they both DID rely primarily on thier in-tank heat exchangers for the majority of heat added to the svo/wvo fuel. Maybe I am wrong. Can you enlighten me?

Other than the in-tank heat exchangers they only seem to provide for heat being added to the fuel via the heated fuel lines and filter heaters. Right?

Has Greasecar ever quantified how much heat is added in each of these points in the conversion?

[cgoodwin]

OK, I got a little hot. Sorry but I grew up in a "Walk the walk if you talk the talk" enviroment and went from wondering why this guy was constantly trying to make me out as a bad person, to realizing that it was Lee and it got my back up.


As I have stated, Lee and all of Greasecar are welcome here as well as in the Private forum for designers where so far only Neoteric, Dana and myself have bothered to post. If you are just going to make accusations, be prepared for the reprocussions and if you can't stand the heat, don't start the fire. I stated at the beginning what the rules were, Lee has not broken them so I have not and will not ban him or anyone else who does not, my word is my bond and I sign it with my name.

Christopher Goodwin

[cgoodwin]

LOL


One of Greasecars users posted a topic on thier forum relating to this post... 56 people viewed it and Greasecar just deleated it. Second post Greasecar has deleted today because it refered to this forum. Good job boys,keep up the censorship and you will run your forum into the ground.

Also seems I have been banned from thier forums.

Thanks

Chris

[6.2L Airforce Van]

So I guess I am not the only one banned from the Greasecar forum now. Awesome!!! I realize that my posts on their forum as of late were a bit mischevious, but just knowing that a "greasecar employee" was doing the same thing here is just funny to me and I feel justified now. Unlike Lee, I don't work for the company I was promoting, I just wanted to make sure that other people knew FRYBRID was out there, it would save them a lot of headaches when it comes to installation time. Chris has been more than just helpful to me, in fact he has become a good friend, and I am not the only one. He works hard for his customers. That Forum on Greasecar was already going down hill, poor Lee must have felt his herd was changing directions and his only response was to lash out. I hope the newbies out there find this forum, it will save them a bunch of time and money. I can't help but laugh at this, what a moron!

[Mandilon]

I was going to post a link to this subject in greasecar.com to have a little fun (but decided that the poor dudes have been EXPOSED S-O stinking BAD that I didn't want to add MORE SALT to the wounds they're so shamefully licking, --after all they're God's kids ALSO, and I say this with my heart!).

I also knew that by already showing how LOW they CAN go my post would be deleted immediately (Lee hounding the greasecar board to prevent further embarasement).

I believe Lee was instructed by greascar so the poor dude was just a pawn (guilty JACK ASS never the less!).

But really, greasecar.com and all other converters, let's make amends to this stupidity (an appology from greasecar.com wouldn't be 'out-of-line,' as a matter of fact they'll look WORSE then they already do IF THEY DON'T) and WORK together!

The COMMON ENEMY is the petroneum industry (and its pawns inside the government), let's S-T-I-C-K together for crying out loud!

God Bless ALL greasers (YES, greasecar.com, --AND 'RED HANDS' Lee TOO!)!

[Ryan DeWald]

Mandolin,

I am amazed at how you seem to have offered someone an olive branch and twisted the knife in at the same time, all the while invoking god.

Have you forgiven or not? It's not at all clear.

[njgreenhouse]

I met the whole crew of greasecar guys at the vermont energy fest in Aug. of 04 and they all treated me like I was a meaningless tag-along (maybe because I was not a customer). they were extremely UN-helpful. I asked justin for advice on how to build my own HIH and he walked away from me without responding.
The only cool greasers I met there was a couple of DIY-ers; one who is probably skiing like a maniac in colorado right now, and the other who was a vermont local with some serious welding/mechanical skills. Those two guys made the whole journey worthwhile, but the whole greasecar crew should have stayed at home.
dan

[cgoodwin]

Please excuse my profanity when replying to Lee, I deleted most of it in edit, I was a little put off.

Another note I wish to make here is this:

I am no saint, however, I have invested better than two years developing my controller, system and components, thousands of hours and thousands of dollars. I am now in the process of changing my business from a repair and restoration facility to a VO system production and research facility at great personal financial risk. On a normal day here I have two full time techs who rely on thier paychecks and our shop rate is $80.00 an hour, each minute I spend replying to posts, offering advice, sending people to Dana or helping the DIY crowd takes money out of my pocket. This, I do because I believe in what is being done here, we are all pioneers in a new field, a field which may better the world we live in.

I am not a rich man, I moved back to the US three years ago with a few thousand dollars, no place to live and no job. A short ime later my daughter was concieved and I opened this business with money I made working out of my one car garage at home. Orginally with one bay which I sublet, I now have 4000sf and two techs. Some months here the rent is paid from my savings, others we do well.

Here at the shop we also provide Biodiesel and filtered VO at NO profit, we sell it for what we pay for it, the equipment, pumps, tanks, filters, heaters, etc are all expenses I personally pay for out of pocket as I do the rent and the time it takes to manage the fuel and clients.

When Greasecar asked me to no longer give advice which was not related to thier products, I left their forum and started this forum as an open and public forum for the discussion of vegetable oil as a fuel for diesel engines. I invited all the kit manufacturers both in the US and abroad to participate, to vend thier wares, to critique other systems and to freely exchange information in an effort that we all might learn something and better the field and our own products.

Sabotaging this effort is unacceptable to me and while I will not ban anyone who does not break the rules I laid out in the beginning, I will reveal these people for what they are if I can.

Lee and everyone else is still welcome here and in retrospect I hope he does not loose his job, just that he becomes a little more mature and realizes that he is doing his company a great disservice with these juvenile antics.

Chris

[dana linscott]

I HEAR you Chris.

I set the goal of breaking even on my investment (not counting time) in two years when I decided to go into the vegoil conversion biz. I realized that the potential was huge..HUGE..but that there needed to be a lot of education and testing done before that potential could be realised.

I think there are two basic business models at play here.

The one I (and I beleive you) are working on is if the concept of vegoil fuels can become common enough to be considered "mainstream" AND the conversion technology can provide for reliable operation of converted engines/vehicles at the same point in history when folks in the US are realizing the costs of petroleum based fuels are rising fast no one will be able to keep up with the requests for product/services.


The business model several (but not all) others are following seems to be the more conventional one of there are only a limited number of potential customers and every sale a "competitor" makes is one less "we" make.


I would love the opportunity to discuss with each of my "potential competitors" why the "unlimited customer" business model is the most appropriate one in this particular case. I am beginning to think that this wil lnever happen since those subscribing to the more conventional model also tend to percieve any criticism by a "competior" as little more than an attempt to "steal customers".

<SIGH> :rolleyes:

[Mandilon]

Hey Ryan,

'We all have at least TWO faces,' heck I've known a person with EIGHT!

So my two sides SHONE THROUGH, -you threw the FIRST stone.

Second stone PLEASE, -get in line ya'll don't throw'em ALL AT ONCE:-)

I'd thought LEE'd be FIRST in line:-)

God Bless ya'll FRYBRIDS!

As for Ryan, see BELOW!

[cgoodwin]

Since I noticed that Lee Briante is listed on the Greasecar site as "Administration" I took the liberty of helping him out with a custom Avatar.

Juvenile I know but....I had the time.

Chris

[6.2L Airforce Van]

Classic, just classic. I am getting the biggest kick out of this thread. When I saw his face in the avatar I thought he might be trying to come out of hiding and maybe add something intelligent to this forum to save face, I guess not though. I love it Chris, it just keeps me laughing. LA Cruiser, nice work on the Jerry Springer forum. NjGreenhouse, I can't believe they dissed you like that, maybe they are a little to young to be in this business. I went to Chris with a Greasel kit and he actually took me in and let me sleep in his shop for 3 days while I installed it with his guidance. I have never met anyone like that before, he deserves all of our support. The veggie world needs him.

[Wreckerman]

Chris.....I guess you know how it feels to have your bottons pushed. We have all been there. Some of my rants on other threads are a little "hot" and
"reactionary" And for the record I never favored selling the organs of those on welfare to repay those benefits, that was espoused by someone else and I apparently got the credit. You are like most of us on this forum, a hard working person that sees the stupidity of the human race and are frustrated by it's seeming inability to pull it's collective head from it's butt. The fact that you are constructively trying to change things makes me respect you as a person even if I don't agree with some of your views on social programs. If you didn't live on the left coast I'd probably cruise by (on veggie power) and shake your hand. Keep on fighting the good fight.
Errrrr.....you want some ketchup with that crow? :cool:

[cgoodwin]

Thank you, incidently the heated thread you refered to has had more hits than any other on the forum, I think I better add a "Political" section, good stuff!

Sorry if I gave you credit for someone elses opinions, replies were being posted so fast it became difficult to keep track and I kind of bowed out. None of us has to agree, the beauty of it is that we can disagree and do it in a place where we are allowed to say what we feel without being banned or shunned for it. That, my friend, is why I was sure my daughter was born on US soil. I will most likely not die here but I would do so in defense of my passport!

With your interest in self sufficiency etc. you should really take a trip to the Baja, it is a no man's land, Mexico considers it "La Frontera" (The frontier) and a person can pretty much do as he pleases. I have about 600ft of beach front 300ft deep in a cove walled with basalt rock, to get into the cove from land you have to cross my property and in Mexico you do not have to grant right of access, so the entire cove is mine. I got it for less than 10k US, it is about 30 minutes from the nearest town which has an international airport but no real tourism. I have solar panels, batteries, 2 600gal water containers and a stock of building supplies stored in a shipping container I plan to ship down and follow it in my bus. My family can play on the beach and I will get started building a house. The water is great, diving, fishing - more than you can eat all year (I am not a avid fisherman but love to put food on my own table), Diving is world class and the desert is a beautiful place where reality is clear and crisp with no lies, things are what they are, it is a harsh environment and everything living there will stick or sting you but as long as you know the rules, an easy environment to live in because the rules have been the same since the dawn of time.

Read "Desert Solitare" by Edward Abbey some time, a bit left for you but you would no doubt love his work.

Thanks again for the good wishes and when I need a hand out I will be knocking on your door with my unwed girlfriend and child ;-)

chris

PS. We planned to get married and have children, about a month later we concieved my daughter. My girlfriends family (Idaho "Conservative republicans" read: Knee jerk right wingers) had a fit and began making wedding plans for us. I would have none of it and I plan for my daughter to present the ring at the wedding. No way was i havign her wonder for the rest of her life if we married because "we had to". I stepped up to the plate and worked my ass off because I feed my family, no one else has that right. Her family loves me now - we avoid politics - and of the other members of the family my girlfriend is the only one who had the privelage to see her daughter through the first years. I have her every morning and evening and most of the weekends, her mother during the day and shares her in the evening (I wake at 5 or 6 no matter what and her mother is better left undisturbed). as a consequence we have a beautiful confident daughter who picks up after herself and behaves well (most of the time).

[sustainable ways]

Chris and everyone on this forum,
I spend my late nights reading this forum while my fiance sleeps since I don't have much other time in my busy schedule. I have read this whole thread and I'm inspired by everyone working on veggie oil and thier openess to helping everyone. Chris I thank you for opening this forum and for being helpful with mechanical information when it is needed. Iam young and I'm trying to to get a foot hold in the veggie arena while trying to pay the bills like everyone else. The support here is what helps me keep trudging when there are so many downers around.
Thanks for the support
Mark

[Mandilon]

I was reviewing my maps and......

....Chris everone knows California 'SHRUNK to oblivion a few thousand years ago,' -though I didn't know Texas 'was so bloated!'

And I lied in my profile stating that I lived in Los Angeles California.

Someone should've notice by now that I live in Los Angeles Baja Canada, there's hasn't been 'a California' for some time as stated by the above facts!

What I don't understand is that YOU claim to live in Washington 'state,' when THERE'S no such state!

I didn't want to blow your cover, but heck, hasn't anybody else noticed the same discrepancies in your claim!

I was going to upload my map but the following were the results:

canada20.gif:
File Too Large. Limit for this filetype is 19.5 KB. Your file is 35.0 KB.

..so I uploaded it to:

http://www.shoveitopecbig3.us/Baja_Canada/

.....now to 'cover' this lie I'll have to 'make up' TWELVE MORE ('til I get caught!)!

By the way, has Lee taken responsibility for his conniving ways?

[ekim]

Wait, did YOU decide this based on "anything east of I5..." or is it about the "909". Anyway it is a shock to find that I'm Texan!!

[Mandilon]

..in my book it's aything EAST of Pacific Coast Highway.

..by the way 'what's wrong' with being Texan?

Lee might 'tell on you' and direct Bush to this thread and the CIA .......might 'classify you' as a terrorist.

And WHY didn't they name it The Republic of Texas, those dudes have been trying to break away from the union for over a hundred years!

----------------------------------------------------------

Hi guys, dropped in for a little bit of 'honest research,' I learned my lesson, --twenty lashes each will do, no?

[akghound]

What happened to the poor newbi that started this thread? I see he only made the one post and has never returned. I hope he got the info he was asking about. Most likely scared off. Ken

[Ziptar]

Any members in the South Fla area frequenting the site?


I am in S.W. Florida, Englewood / Port Charlotte Area.

[Andrew]

Dana, I read your post about the biz. models you percieve at work here in the WVO movement—

and I did look over the rest of this tin-panning, flim-flamming, shite-canning thread. This tripe is why I work for and by myself as a plumbing contractor— I sell nothing, save my ability to get under the crawl and do what few others are willing to do. And what I like best about systems piping is that it all gets covered up not to be touched until well after I am dead— or at least not until I have cashed the client's check and converted to Euros;-)

As I like to say to customers, "your shit is my bread and butter."

Why do I run WVO in my work rig?— becaue I can do it under the radar, depriving the Merchants of Death and Big Brother of their transportation fuel taxes, and because lower emmisions help me sleep a bit better at night, though I rarely get to bed before what t.s. Eliot called the "Violet Hour"— Nevertheless, I still say we are all headed down the same road— destination Oblivionville.

http://www.theotherpages.org/poems/eliot01.html

Now then, let me get to the matter of this business model wasteland and to the point I wish to interject:

Point— Have you thought about the day when most WVO is arbitrarily re-classified as toxic agency-controlled registered haz. mat. and transformed from a free-wheeling-waste-fuel-for-the-masses into a permit-levied,heavy-handedly misguidedly-mangedy consumate-capitalist-cash-consumer resource with massively powerful entrap-paneures and their cadre of mass-murauding legal teams at the joy stick?

Perhaps that day will come sooner than we think?

Simplify matters, and be content to take trips on foot or maybe just rest there under the shade of a dying tree?

Why is it that all the soybean oil now being bio-D-ed is GMO midwestern pesticide laden monoculture? The fix is in fellas, and the back room boys already have their eyes on the your fries.

"By the way, are you going to eat the rest of that?, He asked reaching for my plate.


Oh, and Chris, good luck keeping the other 1.2 million ex-this-that-and-the-other-expatriots out of your private personal southern "lagoon" down there in Bah-ha-ha! Look at the last 20 years along the fabled Baja peninsula— now give it another 20 years (when you have that house done) and by all means let's enjoy the RV park and the chuckie-Cheeze Pizza at the 24-hour strip mall there on your left- and then an evening of put-put on the golf course at your right— not to rain on the motorcade or nothin'— just teasin' out the threads a bit.

Also: the first thing to know about captaining a ship is that the old salts always keep a watchful eye on the LEE-ward side of the vessel. The windward side tends to comamnd too much attention as it is.

You can run WVO, but you still can't hide— wherever you go there you are— and we're just lemmings with car keys.

I learned this when I finally gave up on the 'order of the tweed jacket' and departed the literary haze of my Jacob K. Javits fellowship in Am Lit. at Wahsington University in St. Louis for a many thousands of miles bike trip from above the arctic circle down to your fabled fishing retreat.

What I learned:

The end of human history is the written word— technology is the ultimate straw man, and I love it so, let's all do the WVO!

The Piper

Andrew Carothers-Liske
6125 Marshall Street
Oakland, CA 94608
510-410-1722 7am to 9pm
Your Pipe Dreams Are My Reality

'93 Cummins as my work rig, Jennifer's commute's a gem of an '85 3rd seat wagon, and 4 more converted Benz 300TD veggi-wagons in the greater reaches of my immediate family coast to coast! 2 young daughters, a dog and 14 bicycles, and a dose of hipocrisy that would turn Andrew Carnegie Green in the face.

http://www.wwcd.org/policy/US/UShistory.html ————————————————————————————————

[bande]

I pay to host a forum where anyone can recommend any kit they like or discuss DIY systems without ever being asked "not to promote other products" and I freely take my time to give advice.


My how 10 months have changed your thinking Chris.

This may be my last post based on prior post by chris and my 2nd warning to not promote other kits.

Chris seems you don't practice what you preach

[chriskoym]

Texas is a republic! I read not long ago that Texas was teh only "state" that split from the union in a legal way. There is a group of people that push for Texas to split almost every year. If you grew up in Texas you said the US pledge and then the Texas one.

[diesel$coffee]

chriskoy

You had better be from Texas to make that statement ?? Which I don't think you are/where because if you where you would not have said that! We do not say the US pledge and then the state! shame on you - rinse your mouth out with soap (or better yet acidic WVO)

you must be from south of Brownsville! :D

[DieselBurps]

Doesn't the Texas pledge always come first?

[chriskoym]

Hell it has been at least 10 years, so it could be Texas first or US first. I have spent most of my life in Texas (-time in the army and - time living in my wife's country)

[diesel$coffee]

ok! I guess you are off the hook.. But watch it! :D

a transplant? Hmmmmmmmmmm - dam they never get things right! :rolleyes:

how about a shot of single malt scotch!