Love Craft?

[Boise_Wannabee]

Hello Frybuds,

Have any of you had any experience with this system? Sounds pretty low tech, with just an electric heated fuel filter, running a single tank. Only recommended for Mercedes.

http://www.lovecraftbiofuels.com/

[Rex Leone]

http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1308

[dana linscott]

Only recommended for Mercedes.

Not reccomended for any vehicle by anyone that knows the basic principals behind VO conversion.

[Boise_Wannabee]

OK, that was the longest thread of all time. That was my question, is there more to it than just a heated filter, and it looks like nope.

I found out about his system on ebay, as I was looking for an old Benz.

Thanks.

[dana linscott]

So is he selling the MB or is one of his former customers?

Got a link to the Ebay item?

[ekim]

Poor car!
Looks like him, or his dealership? :)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-300-Series-CALIFORNIA-CALIFORNIA-w123-300D-Turbo-Diesel-100-vegetable-WVO_W0QQitemZ4609127209QQcategoryZ6330QQssPageName ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[G-Funk]

I bought a car from Brian at Lovecraft biofuels and couldn't be more upset with my decision. I should have done much more research. My wife and I got very excited about the idea of using WVO as a fuel source and Lovecraft was very accesible and helpful (at first.) We have had almost nothing but problems with this car and even more problems with Brians costomer service. We have had virtually no luck with cold starts, our mechanic has noticed significant degredation in only about 6 months of use, we have had horrible costomer support from Brian an have even been insulted by him. I whole heartedly ask that everyone research his product and be very very weary. My wife and I have become very dissatisfied with a huge waste of money and many headaches. Our mechanic has asked us to please run deisel until we get a new conversion. I just hope Brian's "conversion" has not done too much damage yet. I hate to bash somebody or anything for that matter, but Brian has crossed the line. He is a hack, scam artist, a total con man. Buyers beware. Please research other alternatives. Lovecraft is a joke, and a costly one.

[luckys420]

I bought a car from Brian at Lovecraft biofuels and couldn't be more upset with my decision. I should have done much more research. My wife and I got very excited about the idea of using WVO as a fuel source and Lovecraft was very accesible and helpful (at first.) We have had almost nothing but problems with this car and even more problems with Brians costomer service. We have had virtually no luck with cold starts, our mechanic has noticed significant degredation in only about 6 months of use, we have had horrible costomer support from Brian an have even been insulted by him. I whole heartedly ask that everyone research his product and be very very weary. My wife and I have become very dissatisfied with a huge waste of money and many headaches. Our mechanic has asked us to please run deisel until we get a new conversion. I just hope Brian's "conversion" has not done too much damage yet. I hate to bash somebody or anything for that matter, but Brian has crossed the line. He is a hack, scam artist, a total con man. Buyers beware. Please research other alternatives. Lovecraft is a joke, and a costly one.

so i take it your testimonial is not on his web site? why not?
where in nor-cal are you. if you are in chico i would be willing to help you out with a conversion. no charge just help, not trying to get buisness!
will

[G-Funk]

I have not yet posted my testimonial on his website yet. I am trying to vent and release some anger first before I sound like a fool and get into arguments I don't want to be in. I want to wait until the bitching is out of my system and be a bit more diplomatic and professional.

I am in Petaluma and currently researching other alternatives in conversions. Thank you for your offer for the help, but the commute may not be too much fun in a car I don't have much faith in.

I would love to keep the car, I am starting to grow attached to it, but that is because I am starting to log much money and time in its refurbishing.

Best of luck and best wishes

[luckys420]

Not only do our systems work great, but, we are the only company with a 100% money back guarantee, anytime, for any reason.
So, if you really think we don't know what we are doing, can you please explain why our cars are still on the road, running great?

I have been in short e-mail correspondence with Brian. Maybey you should take him up on this?

[G-Funk]

That is the problem. We did try and he refused the 100% guarantee. He said he would refund the difference after all the repairs were made and he then hung up on me. He did, however, call back and appologize, but doing bussiness with him has been a huge headache. There I go again, sounding like an angry school boy. The repairs were extremely expensive and, according to our mechanic, caused by his conversion. The injectors were clogged, carbon had built up in the engine, and the new fuel hoses were too small and causing more strain on the engine. Our mechanic also found some metal shavings in the fuel line, plus, Brian lied to us about the sunroof leaking, and the list goes on. Well, the list doesn't go on. I guess that is about it. We never even ran waste veggie oil but we did run new veggie oil for about 3 months until we started having the problems. I wish he was honest about the guarantee, but my wife and I honestly don't want anything to do with him or his business any longer. I have met three other people in the San Francisco area that have had similar problems with him and are switching over to dual tank conversions. The best of luck to all of them and all of us.

[luckys420]

That is the problem. We did try and he refused the 100% guarantee. He said he would refund the difference after all the repairs were made and he then hung up on me. He did, however, call back and appologize, but doing bussiness with him has been a huge headache. There I go again, sounding like an angry school boy. The repairs were extremely expensive and, according to our mechanic, caused by his conversion. The injectors were clogged, carbon had built up in the engine, and the new fuel hoses were too small and causing more strain on the engine. Our mechanic also found some metal shavings in the fuel line, plus, Brian lied to us about the sunroof leaking, and the list goes on. Well, the list doesn't go on. I guess that is about it. We never even ran waste veggie oil but we did run new veggie oil for about 3 months until we started having the problems. I wish he was honest about the guarantee, but my wife and I honestly don't want anything to do with him or his business any longer. I have met three other people in the San Francisco area that have had similar problems with him and are switching over to dual tank conversions. The best of luck to all of them and all of us.

ya thats what i thought. your response would be. I am truly sorry. However, it does not sound like this ruined your veggie experience

[Lovecraft]

We did sell "G FUNK" a wagon, and he did ask for a refund. It was not a phone call, but an email. Here is a copy of it, along with my response

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Hello Brian.

I am really not happy with the wagon. Since you had offered to buy it back in the past I wanted to see if you were still interested in the car.

Just so you know, it is not running right now. I'm about to have it towed to the garage. Also, there is a massive leak somewhere that the folks at the garage were not able to find and fix. They say they are going to have to pull down the headliner. Meanwhile I've been pumping out the back seat with a bilge pump. I put new tires on the car, so I'm feeling really in the hole with this thing right now!

The car is just not what I expected and has been more trouble than it is worth. Let me know if you would like it back, please. You can reach me at 707-364-****.

Thank you,
Justice"

My response email;
"I'd be happy to buy it back, minus the cost of bringing it back to the condition it was in when I sold it to you, and the cost of transportation. Let me know what you'd like to do. If that's not agreeable to you, please let me know how I can help you get it up and going. The water leak is usually a very simple split in the door rubber, that I can walk you through over the phone.
As far as it not running, I'm sure I could walk you through a few simple steps to get it going.
If you're looking to get all of your money back, I have a long list of interested people that would buy it from you.
I'm very sorry about my lack of ability to be more available in the Bay Area, but, I will still work with you through any issues that you have with the car-Brian"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[cgoodwin]

That is the single most reasonable thing I have seen you write. I would think that would do it.

[Lovecraft]

I missed the last email exchange...here it is;

"Brian,
The car would not start because the starter failed. I just had it replaced. At list of interested people would be good. I am also going to put the wagon up on craigslist as soon as the leak is fixed, which will not be until after the 20th of this month. Meanwhile, I'm going to inspect the door rubbers. If that's the problem, that would be wonderful because it would save me a lot of money. At this point I could never get all my money back since I've put around a thousand bucks into it. "

My response;

"Justice,
The rubber door seals often split on the top of the front doors. You can repair them easily with silicone.
These wagons regularly sell for $8000+ One recently sold on Ebay for $12,000. I don't think you'll have any trouble recovering your money. If you post it on the SF Craigslist, it will sell fast. If it doesn't, forward me the ad, and I'll send it to my list of people waiting for wagons-Brian "
__________________________________________________ _______________

I never heard from them again, and assumed everything had worked out. What they posted here, was my first time hearing it. I would have bought the car back than, and the offer still stands.

[G-Funk]

Thank you for posting. I will email you off the forum.

[G-Funk]

These are emails from my wife, not from me. The starter is a mechanical problem we were more than happy to fix. Hell, the car has 250,000 miles on it. Things are bound to break. We have spoken on the phone and I guess you have forgotten. I am sure you are very busy. My intentions are not to insult you. If I have come across that way, I do appologize. My intentions are to urge people to research everything they can about veggie oil conversions and the peolpe selling them. It is more complicated than it seems at first glance. I am glad other people are happy with your service and your conversions. I am just stating that my wife and I are not. If I came across in a derogatory way, I do appologize.

[Lovecraft]

Fair enough...I'm really sorry things turned out this way. I will still gladly give you a 100% refund on the car, anytime.

[cgoodwin]

If you can get $8 - $12k for a wagon with 250K on it, I have a few for you.

[Greasegeek]

That's what I was thinking!!


If you can get $8 - $12k for a wagon with 250K on it, I have a few for you.

[Lovecraft]

I guess you guys haven't looked on Ebay, lately. Two wagons sold for $16,000+ last month. The wagon I sold G-funk was higher miles(still not high for a mercedes) but, I sold it to him for $5,000...My point was, that if he wanted, he could resell it for a profit. It's a black on black turbo wagon, very much in demand.

[cgoodwin]

Had it been stock I would have bought it for 5K

[G-Funk]

Thank you for keeping the offer open, Brian. We are weighing our options.

[fgregg]

Mandy Moore goes with LoveCraft conversions. (http://www.biz-journal.com/HeraldNews/323786086090313.php)

-Forest

[Rex Leone]

Mandy Moore goes with LoveCraft conversions. (http://www.biz-journal.com/HeraldNews/323786086090313.php)

-ForestWhy do I not believe Mandy Moore is going to be in the back of restaurants sucking WVO out of barrels, and then filtering it and filling her vehicle?

[husk316]

Hilarious, what kind of diesel car do you think she has? I am betting a Beetle/Jetta TDI

[ssoulssurfer]

when i first really started getting into VO research, I called around to some shops and was asking some basic questions and stuff. this shop was one of them, being that they are in LA and close to me... I talked to the front desk lady and she transferred me to one of mechanics, where he proceded to be a complete dickhead from the word "hello". Funny how on the listing on ebay, they say how kind and reasonable they are about answering questions.

[dana linscott]

An article on Lovcraft biofuels came out today in the LA Weekly.
The Crisco Kid (http://www.laweekly.com/general/features/the-crisco-kid/13976/)

It goes into some detail about Brians shady past business dealings..and a few of Brians statements are downright hilarious.

He dismissed criticism of his system as sniping from jealous competitors dedicated to the two-tank conversion system. “There’s such a thing as evolution of the system. The diehards who don’t want it to evolve will knock down anyone who does a lot of business or publicity,” he said. “We’re doing nice, quick, low-cost conversions that work. That’s what it’s like to be at the top of the mountain, where everybody underneath us is trying to knock us down.”
:rolleyes:

Friedman, then in his late 30s, grew sick of trends. He was sick, too, of the constant responsibilities of running a business, like balancing books, managing employees and paying taxes.“I was turned off by where that money was going,” Friedman recalled.

Like NOT into his pocket?
What a con man.

[ssoulssurfer]

enough said -------^

[cgoodwin]

“There’s such a thing as evolution of the system"

You must first know the rules before you bend them, and you must break a few to understand how far they can be bent. This is called research and is done at your own expense, simply breaking everything in sight is called being a hack.



If you take a highly evolved system and insist that the most basic concept is best without understanding any of the fundamental principles achieved through years of evolution of the system, you have done nothing but taken the system back to its inception complete with all the flaws later developments sought to avoid. Nothing new is being done here, except being pig-headed enough to think that you can ignore advanced understanding by claiming that what you are doing is new, when in fact it is primordial. Lovecraft is preaching the dark ages of vegetable oil conversions and claiming that anyone who disagrees with him is a heretic trying to bring him down.



He will get his in the end, of course once you wake a sleeping dragon, it may not want to go back to bed. I fear he may have opened Pandora’s box and we may all suffer for his mistakes. Personally, I am holding off on any further financial investment in development of systems for sale until the repercussions of this absurd stupidity define themselves. We may all return to the days of little development and discussions on newsgroups as a result.



I for one am stepping carefully.



CG

[Cigar]

God help us if the EPA decides its time to crack down...

The straight veggie crowd ought pool resources to make oil "street legal"
like the National Biodiesel Board has.

Until it does, there will always be a degree of lack of credibility for it..

[cgoodwin]

It was possible for biodiesel because it can be run in an unmodified vehicle* , VO on the other hand requires modifications, therefore each engine family and application must be individually licensed and it is very expensive, currently it would cost about $20K per engine and application and there simply is not enough profit in systems to make it worthwhile. If I had 100 orders for a particular system for a given engine family and application, I would think about it but the chances of that are about none.

Our systems will be being shipped as follows:


FOR OFF-ROAD USE ONLY

Products are intended for off road use only. The manufacturer, distributor and retailer are not responsible for any misuse of these products. Check with your local authorities for highway laws in your area because highway laws and the enforcement of those laws vary widely.

[Cigar]

"VO on the other hand requires modifications, therefore each engine family and application must be individually licensed and it is very expensive,"


Couldnt the same be said for Natural Gas powered vehicles? Are they all individually tested and licensed? Just Wondering..

[fgregg]

The same is true for CNG and LPG conversions. It's only the last few years that the EPA has been enforcing regulations for that sector.

-Forest

[JeffNLisa]

The same is true for CNG and LPG conversions. It's only the last few years that the EPA has been enforcing regulations for that sector.

-Forest
What enforcement exactly is being done? I haven't heard of any.

Jeff

[fgregg]

I'm not sure of the details, but talking to a contact person from the EPA in the conversion compliance area, it sounded like they were threatening fines, and that a number of converters had completed or were about to complete the certification process. I didn't ask if they had issued any fines yet.

Do a web search for "epa certification lpg conversion".

-Forest

[Cigar]

Sounds like the EPA may be slow to act, but it will act...

[cgoodwin]

Slow unless some twit stuffs a burning newspaper up their arses! We can all thank pinhead for what we will soon see I promise you.

[dana linscott]

In my experience the EPA is fairly understanding and even (dare I say it) helpful to those who are able to show that they are working toward compliance as quickly as they can. They understand that the costs may be prohibitive adn that vendors may need to test the waters to determine if the cost of complinace is likely to be recoverable.

Those who have already accumulated enough profit from selling conversion to begin the engine modification certification process will be (have already been) approached with a letter that clearly states what is expected of them in the near future. Ignoring that letter leads to a stronger letter, and finally a "cease and desist production and sales" letter. Ignoring that WILL put a converter/kit producer in a "workd of hurt" financially. After three warnings the EPA doen not screw around and is not all that helpful until full compliance is proved to their satisfaction.At which point a 3 to 6 month "provisional" certification may be issued. Probationary period for the probably untrustworty.

Personally I do not think the EPA will bother with Lovecraft.
Nor will the CA PCA.
My bet is a dept of revenue representative will show up and "request" sales records of Lovecraft Biofuels. I am also wiilling to bet that Brian will say "I've got them in the back...and slip out the back door....leaving his partners to deal with the problems he has created.

In the past year I know of two who who publicised the fact they did not pay taxes on VO fuel. One in an interview for a paper..and one on the CG forum. Both were contaacted by their state Dept of revenue. And in each case the contact was pretty darn straitforward and relativly gentle. "You need to pay us the tax you owe...NOW". But neither was a business. State Depts of revenue tend to be a little more harsh with businesses who fail to pay taxes. :rolleyes:

I don't blame you for postponing expenditures on research Chris. Lovecraft MAY create a ripple. But frankly I do not think it will extend far past the border of California.

[cgoodwin]

It is not research I am postponing, it is ordering expensive parts in large quantities. When we spoke to the EPA they were actively "looking at" VO, they had just decided that it "is not diesel fuel" and we were told that it is currently "on the radar" but that they were still deciding what actions to take. It made me feel like a man in a row boat watching a destroyer on the horizon slowly turn in my direction.

Vehicles for "off-road use only" or "Strictly for competition use" are currently exempt from EPA regulation. This is the classic loophole which ahs been used for years in the aftermarket parts world, carbs, HP Fuel Injection, Nitrous, chipping, etc are all sold under this umbrella.

[JeffNLisa]

Vehicles for "off-road use only" or "Strictly for competition use" are currently exempt from EPA regulation. This is the classic loophole which ahs been used for years in the aftermarket parts world, carbs, HP Fuel Injection, Nitrous, chipping, etc are all sold under this umbrella.

Even when it is obvious that the use intended is for ON road?

We all know that we are all using it this way, and the kit is obviously sold for use in vehicles that are never used in competition or off road. I can't imagine that the authorities will miss this if they choose to look at it.

I also can't imagine that they could really legislate against its use totally, when it has become as widespread as it has. There are too many government officials I've read about that are using Greasecar kits, certainly some using Frybrid kits.

Tax it, yes. Regulate it, sure. But if they ever decide what taxes and what regulations, I suspect we will simply be told what those are, and required to come into compliance with them.

Only a high-powered lobby, like the oil industry would likely be able to force laws against its use. And even BioD is not on the radar of big oil, and if/when it is, they will simply pick it up and put the little guys out that way.

Jeff

[cgoodwin]

Clearly you do not know what you are talking about. I have spoken with the EPA and they have every intention of regulating the use of VO as a fuel. They in fact intend to require each system manufacturer to have their systems certified, this will cost between $5,000.00 and $30,000.00 per engine and in vehicles fitted with OBD II systems (any US vehicle produced after 1996) each ECU must be certified with the particular system and on each particular vehicle. This means that it will cost $30k for the 99-03 PSD, another $30k for the 04-06 PSD, another $30k for the 94-97 PSD and so on. In addition they have made it very clear that if Frybrid pays for certification, another company producing the same system will still have to pay for their certification. This has all been discussed here a number of times, letters and emails quoted, conversations cited, etc.





Simply saying that you do not think it will happen will not make it go away. These facts remain:



Any modification to the emissions controls of a vehicle operated on the road in the US is illegal and carries a $10,000.00 fine for any shop caught doing so, this includes installation of additional fuel tanks not fitted with evap systems.



The sale of devices for engine modification for off road and competition vehicles is allowed, if the buyer chooses to ignore this and use them on the road the manufacturer is not liable, the user is. As lame as the argument is, it is the same argument which allows the sale of thousands of products. I have a suspension system on my Mercedes which specified its use for competition only, I have carb jetting designed for competition use on several of my vehicles, competition use exhaust systems, etc, etc. Go to any autozone and have a look at the N02 systems and Holley 750 double pumpers on the shelf.



You can buy "Test pipes" which allow you to replace the cat on just about any performance vehicle, ECU mapping which alters the emissions, headers, carbs, larger injectors, double turbos, etc, etc, all come with a warning specifying that they are for off road and competition use only.



Currently the EPA is requiring CNG and LPG system manufacturers to go through certification, even thought they were not required to do so before because they were "Fast tracked" under Carter due to the fear of oil shortages. Many of these companies have simply closed up.



Big oil is not the spectre to fear it is the very regulatory systems put in place to protect the environment that will lead to serious regulation of this industry (if you can call a couple of cottage manufacturers an industry). Since there has been no real testing of VO systems or their emissions there is no argument. Even those in the "industry" have no real data on emissions and honestly do not know if the emissions are better than diesel or bio-diesel, the studies which were performed in the past were mostly done on primitive farm equipment using systems so basic as to be laughable today (except by those installing a heated filter and nothing else). One study makes claims as to soot level, another deals with NOX as an indication of burn time, yet another deals with particulate emissions as an indication of completeness of combustion, none have tested an adequately heated two tank system in a modern automotive engine.



We have been trying for some time to have these tests performed by a certified emissions lab and it is simply not that easy short of spending tens of thousands of dollars and shipping a vehicle to Maryland.



This is still "Experimental" and will remain so until some serious money is spent on emissions testing and frankly likely until a automaker here or abroad is willing to invest heavily in the testing and manufacture of a dual fuel vehicle using SVO, PPO, VO or whatever is today’s preferred abbreviation.

[Bobc]

Ok so now that we have the doom and gloom forecast and reality check ( which is probably fairly accurate ) ,why exactly are you in business producing these kits for sale ??

Bob

[cgoodwin]

For experimenting with experimental fuels in the hope that some of these blockades can be overcome and a waste product can be used as a fuel for diesel engines by the few, the proud, the Frybrid! You see even if VO were accepted as a fuel there is simply not enough to go around and the production of more oil seed may or may not be possible or environmentally sound. According to the paper National Economic Implications of Substituting Plant oils for Diesel Fuels (Collins, 1982) just meeting 10% of the diesel needs of agriculture with plant oils would cost over a billion dollars a year. This is not going to happen unless there is a major shortage and fuel prices continue to climb.

There is however a great deal of waste oil and a great amount of oil already in production which could be used by "Experimenters" to power their vehicles, personally I would rather be one of those experimenting than one of those who is not. While I think that currently the infrastructure simply does not exist for widespread use of VO as a fuel, I would rather be one of the few driving my vehicles on a waste product, than one of those waiting for a VO pump at my corner station.



Look at regulated industries like aviation, likely the most regulated. You can still get a private pilots license and you can buy a plane in pieces as a kit and fly it to Paris if you like, look at the Canard designs of Rutan for "Experimental" kit planes, they ahve found their way into modern fighter planes and commercial aircraft but those who have most directly benefited are those who bought a kit and are flying an incredibly stable 2 place personal aircraft for about $11,000.00!

[a2t]

Heres what wikipedia says :



As of 2000, the United States was producing in excess of 11 billion liters of waste vegetable oil annually, mainly from industrial deep fryers in potato processing plants, snack food factories and fast food restaurants. If all those 11 billion liters could be collected and used to replace the energetically equivalent amount of petroleum (a rather utopian case), almost 1% of US oil consumption could be offset. [citation needed] However, usage of waste vegetable oil as a fuel competes with already established usages.

1% is HUGE! And thats only waste oil ( as of 7 yrs ago). But like the end of last sentence implies...Exxon-Mobil wouldnt be havin that ;)

[dana linscott]

But like the end of last sentence implies...Exxon-Mobil wouldnt be havin that

However, usage of waste vegetable oil as a fuel competes with already established usages.


Actually that refers to biodiesel not petroleum fuels.

[bkngt]

"However, usage of waste vegetable oil as a fuel competes with already established usages."

Actually I think that it is referring to the fact that the majority of the waste oil is recyled into other products such as animal feed, makeup, etc.

[macattack_ga]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zkvT25LmL0

did he say he's doing 4 or 5 conversions A DAY???

[dana linscott]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zkvT25LmL0

did he say he's doing 4 or 5 conversions A DAY???

Since LoveCraft conversions are SO crude and simple to install this could be true. It should only take an ametuer about an hour and a half to slap one of these in. A good mechanic could probably do it in 1/3 of the time.

But does anyone believe ANYTHING that "LoveCraft" says?
At least anyone but the suckers he sells "conversions" to?:rolleyes:

[eclov]

I must say that one year ago when I excitedly walked out of Lovecraft after putting down a deposit on a car, I never thought I would be posting my ensuing terrible experience on their competitors' message boards. I actually cannot say enough negative things about Lovecraft and Brian who runs it. In a nutshell they do shoddy work, have horrible customer service, and act defensive when their product breaks down, or in my case, stalls out on the freeway where my friend who was driving it was rear-ended at 65mph!

Well, 4 months after I put down my deposit, I still did not have my car, despite being told I would have it in a maximum of 6 weeks. They actually called me about a 240D that someone had *returned* because it would not “climb hills” and after 2 seconds of test driving it, I realized that the transmission was not downshifting into first gear. I never heard from them after that, and was told that Veronica, who had been handling my order, had quit and they hadn’t heard from her again. Interestingly, two other employees gossiped to me about Veronica and how she did not do a good job. You can imagine my surprise when she was back at Lovecraft two months later claiming a “spider bite”. In the end, I actually had to buy my own, and take it back to be converted.

Although the car drove fine for the first several months on SVO and WVO, it began to bog down when accelerating onto the freeway. I was told this meant that it was time to change the Lovecraft filter as it was clogged with diesel sludge that had been cleaned out of the system by the vegetable oil. I brought it in, and they changed out the filter. Although it ran seemingly fine, I noticed the level of the oil in the filter was suspiciously low. 3 days after the filter change, my friend borrowed my car to go to work and it stalled out on the freeway at 65 mph, and she was rear-ended by a truck. She is fine only because of the fine german engineering of the car, but the lovecraft system I am fairly sure was to blame. Brian of course acted super-defensive and said it was not related to his system.

My friend who was driving my car at the time of the accident ironically was on the waiting list for a converted Benz through Lovecraft and waited 7 months (despite being told a maximum of 6 weeks), never got a call, and she then had to be put on a waiting list to get her refund back from some random woman in Portland OR. This woman, Tacee Webb in Portland, e-mailed her and said that the delay was due to all of Lovecrafts unpaid bills and debts.

I decided that it would be fair to ask Brian for a refund. Since I never heard back from either Brian in LA or Tacee in Portland, I posted the following message on the Lovecraft forum (Brian immediately deleted it and BLOCKED me as a user):

Dear Brian,
I am frustrated to say the least. I am sure you remember me: I called you back in November to let you know that my 300SD converted by Lovecraft stalled out on the freeway while going 70mph and was rear-ended and totaled. This occurred exactly 3 days after I brought the car, which had previously been running fine, into your shop for a filter change.

Despite the obvious blame, I actually just called out of safety concern for your other customers who I thought might also run into this problem. You actually got defensive and argumentative with me and said the fuel tank strainer was probably to blame (which it wasn’t because prior to the filter change the car ran beautifully). After I got my life back in order and could focus more on this matter, I dropped off the below letter (as well as accident report, photos, and receipts for the conversion and recent filter change) at Lovecraft back in January, requesting a refund. You were not in the office at the time but I was told you would get back to me as soon as you had a chance to read it. After several attempt to reach you, Jason finally referred me to Tacee Webb in Portland Oregon, who was handling Lovecraft’s “finances”. Tacee initially responded that she was doing everything in her power to get me a refund but was “overwhelmed with all of the debts she didn’t realize Lovecraft had”. As you might expect, I haven’t heard from her in two months despite several follow-up emails on my part.

I find it very distressing that there are SEVERAL posts on your forum from customers having the same issue as I had accelerating onto the freeway, and you treat them with the same lace of concern for safety as you did to me. I’m not being given the whole story here, and neither are your other customers. I’m guessing I’m not getting my refund, and so I hope I can at least do what should be your job to alert your customers of the *reality* of a safety concern. I would be happy to receive a response either personally or publicly on this forum, but given your track record I do not expect one.

Thank you.
Eric

- - - - -

I then received the following e-mail from Brian:
Brian <brian@lovecraftbiofuels.com> wrote:
Eric,
You really don't have to make a big issue about your refund, because we have a refund policy. Bring back the conversion components, and we will refund the cost of those parts ($425) Labor is not refundable, as we had to pay our mechanics to install the system. If you have any problem after bringing in the parts, email me, and I'll make sure it's taken care of.
-Brian

I responded with the following:
Brian,
Thanks for getting back to me. I'm only making a "big issue" about the refund because I haven't gotten a response until now - I think I've been patient actually. Here is the problem: the car was kept in a tow yard for one month while the insurance companies conducted their accident investigations. I was not allowed to touch or remove anything from the car, and then it was liensaled immediately following the investigation. I have all the paperwork on this. I understand that labor is not usually refundable (because that's taking money away from your hard working mechanics) but do I still qualify for a refund on parts?

As I said, I'm actually NOT trying to be difficult here, and I only am looking for 2 things: some type of refund (which I think is fair), and recognition by you that you will look at your design to try to make sure this doesn't happen to anyone else. Do you agree?

At any rate, I do appreciate your response.
Eric

Brian then responded with:
I'm sorry that you haven't had a response from the office...I think it was just an unusual situation that fell between the cracks.
If you are able to bring in the components, we will gladly refund those parts for you. If the insurance company lien saled the car, with the conversion in it, there is obviously nothing we can do for you...it does mean that you received an insurance settlement, though, which is something.
As far as the power loss issues, anytime you have people using waste vegetable oil as fuel, you risk clogging your fuel system. This is something we can not control, and can't take blind liability for. I've had people put water, beacon fat, grease, rice & french fry chunks, you name it, in their tanks. If I took responsibility for the problems that have arisen from this, we might as well shut down.
That being said, we've made huge advances in new systems, that are far less susceptible to clogging, using stronger booster pumps, looped returns, etc. However, no matter what we do, it will always be possible to clog your fuel system with dirty fuel, or a dirty tank.
I am very sorry about the accident you had...I hope you can see our side, as well.
Thanmks-Brian- - - - - - -
SO, there you have it. Brian has ultimately proved that, at worst, he does not care about a possible major safety issue that others have been posting messages about on his forum, and at best he is refusing to refund my money on a convenient and lame technicality despite the clear merits of my request. For his abyssmal communication and customer service tendencies alone, you should steer clear of Lovecraft.

I was considering going outside the WVO/ BioDiesel community with this matter because Brian himself, and his business, deserve the negative publicity and to be put out of business. Since Lovecraft will inevitably go out of business on its own, I didn't think it was worth the risk of someone in the media who is anti-alternative fuel taking control of the story and spinning it the wrong way. I decided that what is best is to inform the community itself of Brian's shortcomings so that you can spread the word even more than it has already spread.

On a positive note, there is a MAJOR market for WVO conversions in Southern California. Mail-order kits are great, but the reason Lovecraft gets so much business despite it’s terrible business practices is because customers like to walk into a show-room and be able to talk to someone in person. So if any of you have the entrepreneurial drive to open up a competitor to Lovecraft in East LA, I can assure you you will quickly take away all of their business as they deserve.

[eclov]

I have not yet posted my testimonial on his website yet. I am trying to vent and release some anger first before I sound like a fool and get into arguments I don't want to be in. I want to wait until the bitching is out of my system and be a bit more diplomatic and professional.

I am in Petaluma and currently researching other alternatives in conversions. Thank you for your offer for the help, but the commute may not be too much fun in a car I don't have much faith in.

I would love to keep the car, I am starting to grow attached to it, but that is because I am starting to log much money and time in its refurbishing.

Best of luck and best wishes

I say don't bother because I posted a message to Brian about my unfortunate experience (to say the least) and he not only tore it right down from the sight, but actually blocked me as a user! His shortsightedness just astounds me because, of course, I went ahead and posted the message on Frybrid and Greasecar. Unfortunately Frybrid seems to also have some bizarre review process, so the posting is not yet up. Check out greasecar forum....

[G-Funk]

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience, as well. I figured any negative posting to the Lovecraft site would be deleted. I have spoken to a few other folks that have gotten these hacked conversions with the exact reactions as yours, stalling, not being able to eccelerate beyong 30 mph, not being able to climb hills, radiator leaks from improperly installed hoses, and the list goes on. Many mechanics have gotten very much money from trying to fix Lovecraft's work and many people are unknowingly driving unsafe vehicles. I wish Brian wasn't so stubborn and would realize he needs better mechanics and a better system.

[cgoodwin]

These were the same complaints I made about his work last year when he was just a travelling hack. read through this mess http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1308&highlight=veggie+wrangler strangely enough even after this he opened a business hacking up cars. It is sad that any fool can claim to be a tech, vehicles are far more complicated and fragile then non-techs give them credit for, this is why I do not sell systems for vehicles we have not converted and some we have if I feel the skill levelo required is beyond non-professional techs.

[RNCarl]

Well...

I can't believe this guy is still around after 2 years.... I wonder if any of those early "conversions" are still alive.

The down side is the hack was quoted in Diesel Power magazine this month in an article about the older Benz oil-burners. Up to this point I had great respect for that periodical. Now, I will revisit the "advice" given by some of their "experts".

There are volumes of experience being gathered here on this forum. Needless to say thousands of miles being logged on grease by many of the members.

I stand by my comment that I made about Brian.

C.

.

[cgoodwin]

What you should do is write to DP and suggest they do an article about the destruction of older Mercedes featuring Brian. I could honestly care less about the competition, we are in completely different leagues and the people he robs simply have not done any research and would likely move on before reading the first paragraph of the "VO Theory" page. What bothers me is that every person who he sells a car will end up thinking that SVO is a scam, possibly that bio-fuels are a scam, it makes the industry look bad and it does not bode well for its future. Brian made comments in an interview taunting the EPA and DOT, he is being very high profile while simultaneously doing the worst hack work possible, his work is shoddy, his "System" poorly thought out and poorly executed, his attitude defiant. This is the very kind of behaviour which will lead to strict governmental control of a developing industry and very possibly regulate us all back to the gas pump.

[Fordnut74]

What you should do is write to DP and suggest they do an article about the destruction of older Mercedes featuring Brian. I could honestly care less about the competition, we are in completely different leagues and the people he robs simply have not done any research and would likely move on before reading the first paragraph of the "VO Theory" page. What bothers me is that every person who he sells a car will end up thinking that SVO is a scam, possibly that bio-fuels are a scam, it makes the industry look bad and it does not bode well for its future. Brian made comments in an interview taunting the EPA and DOT, he is being very high profile while simultaneously doing the worst hack work possible, his work is shoddy, his "System" poorly thought out and poorly executed, his attitude defiant. This is the very kind of behaviour which will lead to strict governmental control of a developing industry and very possibly regulate us all back to the gas pump.


I have to agree 100% with this. That is one of my worst fears. 90% of the laws are made to control 10% of the population. And all it takes is one bad egg that will cause a mandate and regulations in this industry that will do nothing but make our lives more complicated and expensive. I wonder if we can be proactive as an industry and some of the top company's come up with our own standards before we are dictated to?

[dana linscott]

I wonder if we can be proactive as an industry and some of the top company's come up with our own standards before we are dictated to?

How do you suggest we begin?

[Brad]

Heres something else, a personal experience I hope is not made up......

http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7408

[dana linscott]

And yet another part of the Lovecraft saga?

for sale sign hanging out front of Lovecrap
Yep... I drove by today and saw it. I went in a snooped around a little and found out that "brian dosn't "own" the biz anymore".

They still had the same usless girl sitting there at the desk looking deranged though...

(From the Infopop SVO forum today)

[RNCarl]

How do you suggest we begin?


How to begin...

That is the question. I thought Ms. Sheltdon who formed the NVOB was going to address this exact issue.

C.

.

[dana linscott]

How to begin...

That is the question. I thought Ms. Sheltdon who formed the NVOB was going to address this exact issue.

C.

.

Where did you get that impression?
The NVOB is not an industry organization.

While it certainly could serve as a place for industry vendors to come together several still have not even bothered to show minimal support for that org.

No...I think it is up to those in the industry who look to the future to come together to form a core for what may later be an industry council.

[Brad]

I wonder if this means anything.....
http://www.lovecraftbiofuels.com/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&func=view&id=1970&catid=10
??

[RNCarl]

Where did you get that impression?
The NVOB is not an industry organization.

While it certainly could serve as a place for industry vendors to come together several still have not even bothered to show minimal support for that org.

No...I think it is up to those in the industry who look to the future to come together to form a core for what may later be an industry council.

Where did I get that impression? From the NVOB website.

VegOil Industry Ethics Statement - TBA, Leader
Summary: Development of code of conduct for VegOil industry for self-regulatory Best Practice.
Project: Research Ethics Statements used by other industries and craft VegOil appropriate version.
http://www.vegoil.us/Committees.htm

and here:


The Official Site of the National VegOil Board


The NVOB is a California-based Non Profit Corporation formed to unify and mobilize


all individuals interested in seeing VegOil fuel catch on in mainstream America.
Mission: To provide education about and support for VegOil as a fuel; to facilitate VegOil discussions and events; to promote VegOil research, analysis and funding.



That is directly from the home page.

If this isn't an indication that she is trying to be an "industry" organization, I don't know what she is trying to portray then.

I disagree with you Dana, that those in the industry should self regulate, in that, only the kit manufacturers or those trying to "make a buck" from wvo should self police. There are too many opinions as to what is "the right way" to do things. Standards need to be arrived at objectively and impartially. Input from those like yourself and Chris would be invaluable, however, to help eliminate the flame wars that happen so often, an objective party should mediate. I thought that was a purpose that NVOB could fill.

Actually, at this point even the NVOB may have compromised "her" objectivity because of selling advertising spots at the bottom of the home page of the NVOB website.

It does appear that the wvo "industry" is fast approaching a tipping point. if the "industry" does not "self police" - The federal government soon will.

As we all know, it is one thing if I go out and hack up my fuel delivery system and blow the engine/IP up - or cause an accident. It becomes something more if I buy "plans" from someone on how to convert, still another level when I buy a "kit" to convert my car and yet another level of responsibility when I have my car converted by someone else.

I would like to see a forum started over at the NVOB. That way no one could be accused of monitoring or editing threads.

Thoughts gentlemen?

C.

.

[dana linscott]

You will notice that the NVOB is setting up research committes for a LOT of aspects of VO conversion.

One of them is:VegOil Industry Ethics Statement - TBA, Leader
Summary: Development of code of conduct for VegOil industry for self-regulatory Best Practice.
Project: Research Ethics Statements used by other industries and craft VegOil appropriate version.
http://www.vegoil.us/Committees.htm

Unfortunately there are currently more projects proposed by members (as this one was) than qualified volunteers to work on them.

It would be a good first step if a set of ethics for the industry could be developed by ANYONE for the industry. It would be a good first step.

Mission: To provide education about and support for VegOil as a fuel; to facilitate VegOil discussions and events; to promote VegOil research, analysis and funding.

That is directly from the home page.

If this isn't an indication that she is trying to be an "industry" organization, I don't know what she is trying to portray then.

You read far too much into it IMO.
Or maybe too little.

The NVOB is not a VO fuel industry org. It is a VO fuel COMMUNITY org.

Actually, at this point even the NVOB may have compromised "her" objectivity because of selling advertising spots at the bottom of the home page of the NVOB website.

Get real. Do you really think that that small revenue stream is enough to influence anybody?

It does appear that the wvo "industry" is fast approaching a tipping point. if the "industry" does not "self police" - The federal government soon will.

I could not agree more.
But only those vendors "in it for the long haul" care. And there are a surprisingly small number of those.

I would like to see a forum started over at the NVOB.

I predict that this will never happen. Forums are expensive and time consuming. There are more than enough VO fuel forums already and frankly I do not see anything the NVOB might gain from providing a forum.

[Fordnut74]

How do you suggest we begin?

Dana- Good question. I suppose anyone can pose questions, but coming up with answers to those questions is the hard part. It will be difficult to institute policy without getting into a which way is better war. So first off everything I believe anything that is to be accepted needs to at least have some substantiated documentation to it or established sucess. Such as Frybrids Polymerization report, my 50,000 mile injector report, and of course those who have blown things up as well. But basically putting established knowledge into words. A way of eliminating the hacks, without making it prohibitively expensive for those trying to do it right.

Realistically there are only a handful of respectable names in the industry. We need to attempt to meet at a nuetral location(Vegas is always good:D ) to discuss details and start the ball rolling on making policy.

[dana linscott]

I think ethical standards would be a good place to start.

There must be some minimum set of standards that most of us wodul be willing to agree to abide by. It would at least delineate those who will agree to abide by SOME standard from those that won't even give lip service to doing so.

Reports are a sticky wicket since reports are often generated in order to "prove" what the sponsor wants to be proven. This is common in other industries and I don't see why ours would expect to be any different.

As for a place to meet...I work in private virtual workgroups every day. I see no reason that those who want to be included in such a meeting woudl need to travel anywhere furter than their keyboard to do so. An open forum setting woudl not work..but certainly a private forum might be acceptable.

In order for them to be considered legitmate they would have to abide by and be subject to more scrutiny and reveiw than is now possible.

All in all I think ethics are probably the place we need to start the discussion and process. Doing so without pointing fingers woudl be the difficult part for most of us.

[RNCarl]

Just got back from doing the "Disney thing" in Orlando. I went a whole week without any Internet access............................... :confused:

This thread has wandered off of talking about Love Craft to what the svo/wvo community should/could be.

Unfortunately, it is hacks like Brian who get these discussions going.

....... So, a little more wandering.

First,

Get real. Do you really think that that small revenue stream is enough to influence anybody?

Yes, and No. No, I doubt and seriously hope the small change generated there would not influence anyone. However, there is some psychological weight given to those who appear legit by buying an ad. The "director" is being influenced by someone in the industry. [Not meaning you Dana] I will leave the comment at that. - No Poo slinging.


The NVOB is not a VO fuel industry org. It is a VO fuel COMMUNITY org.



I refer you to the description of the VegOil Industry Ethics Statement.

If you are defining the industry by referring to only those who derive financial gain from selling a product are the industry and others who use VO as the community, then I think you have too narrowly defined the "industry". VO is still in the pioneer/gold rush phase. Unfortunately, with the speed of the Internet, there are those who are making some money off of VO who most likely shouldn't be. We are all here for our own reasons, however, [short of only being involved in VO to turn a fast buck] we are all involved in the "industry" of seeing VO become validated as an alternative renewable fuel.


I could not agree more.
But only those vendors "in it for the long haul" care. And there are a surprisingly small number of those.


I am not trying to piss-up-a-rope of semantics here. I am in an industry where the word "vendor" is a curse word. Somehow when I left the academic medical hospital community and went to work for a company, I became a "vendor" even though, I am a direct consultant to the very people who I worked for previously.

I do not see, Dana, Frybrid, Vegistroke being only vendors. Pioneers, resident experts and researchers yes. Additionally, there are others who quietly go about collecting oil, converting engines and have a wealth of knowledge who do not derive their livelihood from VO. Are those individuals any less involved in the industry?

The reason I suggested a forum at NVOB was to have a "safe haven" for someone to go to ask a question or post a complaint. This forum appears to be the most open that I have seen. However, it is still Chris' sandbox.

In order for them to be considered legitimate they would have to abide by and be subject to more scrutiny and review than is now possible.
All in all I think ethics are probably the place we need to start the discussion and process. Doing so without pointing fingers would be the difficult part for most of us.

That is exactly why I suggested that someone who does not derive their living from VO be involved in forging some guidelines.

Since there is no "peer reviewed" journal - yet for VO, I can understand the concerns over reports. However, if posted in an open forum, the document does come under extreme scrutiny.

Private work groups are a good way to go as long as there is a strong team leader. Trips to Vegas result in a lot of beer being consumed. :D My personal favorite. It is nice however to speak to someone face to face to size them up and see if they are for real.

All I know is, it is fast becoming time to, "get'er done!"

C.

.

[cgoodwin]

Unless things are very different from what I see, this "industry" is still at the "Cottage" stage and it will likely not go much farther unless something really changes. The only way that there will be real money in VO systems is if the fuel is readily available, this will only happen two ways; 1) The cost of diesel grossly exceeds the cost of new oil. 2) It becomes legal to sell VO as a fuel. While #1 is a possibility, it may be a way off and from predictions I have seen the cost of new oil is going up as well. The possibility of #2 is very slim. There may be some exemptions made here and there but in the end this "Industry" will go the way of the Propane conversion business because of how the law is written and I do not see the NVOB being capable of doing anything about that - I am not saying it is impossible, I am saying that it may be impossible for them.

Here are some simple facts. If VO were to pass tier 1 & 2 testing (required of all fuels which enter commerce) the testing could only be done on a converted engine, lets say a 1999 PSD with a Frybrid kit. While it would make it legal to use VO as a fuel in a 1999 PSD with a Frybrid kit, it would not make the fuel legal for other vehicles because the vehicle must me modified. AND simply passing emissions tests and using an accepted fuel would not make the vehicle legal since it has been modified. The EPA wants to test the modification to be sure it does not interfere with any emissions on the diesel side as well as the VO side and here comes the kicker. A passing test on a 1999 PSD would only get a kit for the same engine family certified, so it would only be applicable to the non-california 1999-03 PSD, another test would be needed for the cal model and just to add injury to insult, the EPA wants to see that every function of the OBD II system is intact and working on both fuels. SO you need to run the motor, pass emissions, pass physical inspection, then create a fasle positive condition for EVERY code created in the OBDII system on both diesel and VO and proof the results. Cost $30,000.00 per engine family with like programming, so if the vehicles ECU was different even in the same engine production run, you get to test it all over.

Just to toss some barbed wire in the salad. There is no porvision for "Like" conversions. So if Frybrid had a system certified for the 1999-03 PSD and Vegistroke wanted to claim that there system was "Like" the frybrid system and should therefore ride in on the coat tails, the EPA says NO, each system by each manufacturer needs its own certification "there is no provision for "Like" systems.

None of this is hyperbole, this is some of what the EPA has told us and they are using the same set of standards they did with the propane industry. Thy to find someone willing to convert your suburban to run on propane today (cue wide shot of abandoned dusty street, tumbleweeds roll from behind camera into view and skip down the street in the blowing dust). Remember when there were little hippy shops converting everything to propane, maybe not everywhere, but there were at least 4 small shops in Seattle from the late 70's to the mid 90's doing pizza delivery vehicles, cabs, etc. They are all gone now and the only compaines I know of have this on their main webpage; "Note: we do not sell kits for late model cars and trucks.(87 and up)Please do not call us about these vehicles as it is not legal or cost effective to do these vehicles.(computer controlled) Thank you for your understanding. " and this: "THESE ARE NOT FOR SMOG CONTROLLED CARS AND TRUCKS! WE DON"T KNOW ANYONE WHO HAS A KIT FOR THEM." This is, I am affraid, the future of the VO industry. Selling parts may be legal, selling diagrams of how to install may be legal, even selling kits may be legal but only with this kid of language and attitude.

Time to ge tthe girl up and going - got to run

[phil]

Interesting post, Chris, if a little bleak. What do you see in the future for Frybrid?

[dana linscott]

Unless things are very different from what I see, this "industry" is still at the "Cottage" stage and it will likely not go much farther unless something really changes.

I agree.
But "something" is changing though you may not be aware of it. In fact several things are changing that make the probability of VO becoming a certified fuel (for certified encing conversions) in the next 3-5 years very good. And once VO fuel is certified for use in ANY engine the availability of VO fuel will grow significantly. Those in the cottage industry of converting private vehicles will benefit significantly until the EPA actually requires all kits to be ceritifed. Once that occurrs the cottage industry of converting private vehicles will change in a very significant way. If there is no co-operation among the "players" I suspect those with the wherewithall to certify kits for a few specific engine familys will survive and those who do not will dissappear under the weight of the EPAs ability to levy fines with little more than a cease and desist order.


But there are opportunitys for VO fuel that are almost never discussed on the forums. Mainly because the forums are primarily geared toward private vehicle conversion. Frankly this is a small sector of the potential market for VO fuel conversion but one that is very neccesary for the general public to become aware of the option. It is for this reason I have supported it though my income is not significantly derived from it. But the "education" of the general public has become self sustaining at this point and in progressing at rate much faster than I ever anticipated. The time is fast approaching where the focus will shift to mostly commercial uses of VO fuel though this will probably not be noted in the public forums devoted to private vehicle conversion.

There are currently several specific conversions being certified and at least one (US) engine maker developing an engine specifically for the use of VO fuel. None to my knowledge are for private vehicle use. This represents a moarvelous opportunity for those in the conversion kit "cottage industry" to capitalize on. But only if the "players" can conduct themselves as professionals and work together on some level for a common purpose.

Currently none of them appear capable of a civil and professional dialog with the others. If that continues the outlook is indeed bleak for those wishing to convert their private vehicles in 5-10 years. This may be especially painful for those vendors who appear to be flourishing as the awareness of the public of VO fuel has grown over the last few years. Without some ability to agree on at least a general plan for the future for the industry as a whole each vendor appears to be simply waiting for a cease and desist order to close up shop and be satisfied with whatever profit they may have made up to that point.

Several years ago I made an initial attempt to get a few of the current vendors (who I thought had the potential to at least talk to each other) communicating with each other. My "pitch" was basically that there was more than enough potential customers to "go around" and that by cooperating with each other on some basic projects that benefitted all concerned all would benefit significantly in the long term. Most seemed convinced that there really was no "long term" and that they needed to consider any customer another vendor "got" a potential customer lost to them. I decided at that time to structure my own business to survive an "EPA crackdown" since it appeared that none of the the vendors I contacted were the slightest bit interested in my proposal.

Yet the proposal is still on the table.

[phil]

Can you tell us more about that engine being developed for VO?

[dana linscott]

Can you tell us more about that engine being developed for VO?

I seriously doubt I can reveal much more.
Why do you want to know?

I mentioned it since it is significant that such a large investment is being made by a major engine maker. For all I know more than one engine maker is doing this. I am only privy to one though.

[phil]

Quote: Why do you want to know?


Well, this is a forum for discussion about vegetable oil....

[craigreece]

My opinion is that in light of the recent Supreme Court decision ruling in favor of California, Massachusetts and several other states (who sued the Bush Administration and the EPA over the (ridiculous) claim of the Bush administration that the EPA had no mandate to regulate global warming pollution) it's very unlikely that the EPA will crack down on SVO/WVO use, particulary with Bush's status as a lame duck and with Barbara Boxer in control of the senate panel on climate change and a Democrat in control of the equivalent committee on the house side.

They're going to be way to busy regulating coal-fired power plants and other sources of CO2 emissions to bother with SVO/WVO, and since our EPA testing at the University of Colorado demontrated that a properly converted vehicle had better emissions than the same vehicle running on ULSD (while not contributing to climate change) why would they spend time and money going after WVO/SVO?

Craig

[petec]

Because they can.

Goverment officials (of any country) being Goverment officals wil go after those with limited resources to fight back.

What is better to rack up wins on your anual review record-Taking on a multi million dollar Energy concern with an Army of law firms on the retainer. -Or a couple of VEggie nut people in clear violation of the law. The recent case in Il is an example (although that had a happy ending)

The IRS goes after middle income taxpayers far in excess of upper income taxpayers. Why ? You can threaten and get most any middle income taxpayer to pay the fine, or penalty (or work out a payment plan) in a single audit. The middle income taxpayer has little excess funds to fight the Audit. An upper income taxpayer will have his tax lawyer fight the audit every step and drag it out forever.

Any IRS agent will tell you they can settle ten $7K cases before lunch. A $70K case takes forever to resolve and they usually settle for half.

[DieselBurps]

My opinion is that in light of the recent Supreme Court decision ruling in favor of California, Massachusetts and several other states (who sued the Bush Administration and the EPA over the (ridiculous) claim of the Bush administration that the EPA had no mandate to regulate global warming pollution)
The ridiculous part is that same EPA can now regulate how many breaths you take - and I'm sure the government will find a way to tax you on the excess.

it's very unlikely that the EPA will crack down on SVO/WVO use, particulary with Bush's status as a lame duck and with Barbara Boxer in control of the senate panel on climate change and a Democrat in control of the equivalent committee on the house side.
Great - we've got the real idiots in charge now! I think you'll find the Republicans were less interested in WVO - and more likely to consider it a fringe movement that wasn't worth pursuing. The Democrats are far more likely to see it as another thing to collect taxes on - and levy stiff penalties, maybe even come up with new taxes to hit vendors with.

They're going to be way to busy regulating coal-fired power plants and other sources of CO2 emissions to bother with SVO/WVO, and since our EPA testing at the University of Colorado demontrated that a properly converted vehicle had better emissions than the same vehicle running on ULSD (while not contributing to climate change) why would they spend time and money going after WVO/SVO?

Let the California rolling blackouts begin! :D Meanwhile, why not tax the snot out of WVO? You guys already have enough fun trying to collect the stuff. When HASN'T the government taken enough money from us?

[dana linscott]

Quote: Why do you want to know?


Well, this is a forum for discussion about vegetable oil....

Yes..and I am more than willing to discuss most aspects of VO conversion. But discussion is limited for several reasons. For example if you want to discuss the exact specificatiosn of a Frybrid kit for a specific conversion I am sure Chris would want to know why you feel he should provide these to you on a public forum since they are for the most part proprietary.

Similarly while I share pretty freely when it comes to most subjects some are proprietary in nature and cannot be as freely shared. However...if you have a good reason why you think I should request the OK to share someone elses proprietary information I am willing to present it in an effort to get the OK to do so.

AS far as an EPA crackdown on VO use..I agree that this is unlikely to happen. The logistics and politics of going after individuals who are using VO fuel in a non commercial manner is not a very viable option to the pragmatists at the EPA. However if I understand the position of the EPA those vendors who are making a profit from sales of VO conversion equipment are not due a free ride either.

From my discussions with EPA officials it appears that once a vendor can afford to make some effort to begin to comply with the CAA the EPA expects them to show that some effort is being made to do so. Those vendors that choose not to make any effort to do so woudl seem to be the likely target for initial enforcement actions. Currently it seems that GC is making soem efforts to show an intent to comply. Others such as Greasel/GFS appear to be signalling they have no intention of complying.

I am under the impression (though I have no special knowledge) that Frybrid is signalling the possibility of compliance once it is financially feasable..and that Plantdrive is simply maintaining as low a profile as possible and hoping the EPA never notices them. I doubt that the EPA will crackdown on any vendor who indicates they are honestly trying to comply as best they are able. I have no idea how they will deal with those who appear to not be willing to comply with the regulations the EPA is required to enfoce. But if the past is any indication of the future they will make an example fo those who refuse to even attempt to comply with the regulations.

Remember..the legislature made the laws...the EPA is just tsaked with enforcing them. They are not "the bad guys" in this case and to portray them as such in light of their relatively benevolent position on VO fuel use up to this point is not only incorrect it is unfair and possibly counter productive.

[Cigar]

I seriously doubt I can reveal much more.
Why do you want to know?

I mentioned it since it is significant that such a large investment is being made by a major engine maker. For all I know more than one engine maker is doing this. I am only privy to one though.


If I was a betting man, I would say that engine manufacturer is Caterpillar.
Why? Because I am privy to a bit of info too....:D

[DieselBurps]

If I was a betting man, I would say that engine manufacturer is Caterpillar.
Why? Because I am privy to a bit of info too....:D

Gee Cigar, are you actually involved in the project as a consultant, covered by super-secret contracts with clauses that restrict your ability to reveal any information at all about the effort? Would you be the main engineer in charge of the design as well? :D

Yeah - I loved the little "I know something that you don't" bit there. Some people make themselves feel more important in their pathetic, lonely lives by restricting the flow of information. Others actually become more important by sharing the information.

They are one of the major players that would be able to make a real difference. I'd be shocked if all of the major truck/equipment diesel engine manufacturers weren't doing SOMETHING in the alternative fuels arena - just the ability to recommend 100% biodiesel would give them an advantage.

[cgoodwin]

Cat has been involved in such research for at least a decade or two, the original Elsbett company actually did it but at that time the engine was too expensive for mass production and without mass production the price could not be brought down. All the information is already available and I spent some time working on custom pistons and a cylinder head to just this end based on the TDI motor. Anyone who can read and use google can find what there is, I would be gobsmacked if anyone is doing anything with this that has not been done, the answers are fairly simple.

The we run into the legality of fuel testing, infrastructure of heated fuel stations, etc, etc. My daughter may see it, I doubt i will and unless they begin using these engines to plant, harvest and transport the oil stock as well as coming up with some fertilizers not based on petroleum, then the net gain will be squat.

Sorry, I'll let you get back to smoking soy beans, the dreams are nice and the colors are soooo prettttttyyyyyy.

As for regulation, has anyone looked for a company to convert your truck to propane lately. The EPA sure shut them down with a wicked quickness.

[RNCarl]

The we run into the legality of fuel testing, infrastructure of heated fuel stations, etc, etc. My daughter may see it, I doubt i will and unless they begin using these engines to plant, harvest and transport the oil stock as well as coming up with some fertilizers not based on petroleum, then the net gain will be squat.
.


Long before that happens, if they suspect any real momentum the petrocompanies will dump the price of crude oil due to a "monumental oil find" and gas in the U.S. will be under $2/gallon. At that point, there will only be a handful of people driving diesels again much less anyone worried about bio-fuels... their use will become "cost-prohibitive" again.

That is, unless you believe in peak oil... in that case, life will become interesting in the next 10 years.

C.

.

[dana linscott]

we run into the legality of fuel testing, infrastructure of heated fuel stations, etc, etc.

Private heated VO fuel stations are already operating Chris. I see no reason that ones open to the public would not work just as well. I agree that it is unlikely that we will see VO offerred at conventional fuel stations anytime soon...but dedicated and automated VO fuelling stations are well past the prototype stage.

I would like to resond to your comment "we run into the legality of fuel testing" but am not certain exactly what you mean by that. Can you clarify that statement?

I also do not understand what you mean by
unless they begin using these engines to plant, harvest and transport the oil stock as well as coming up with some fertilizers not based on petroleum, then the net gain will be squat. It seems that you are indicating that you believe that when oilseed crops are grown conventionally there is as much energy used as gained. It this correct?

As for regulation, has anyone looked for a company to convert your truck to propane lately. The EPA sure shut them down with a wicked quickness.

Technically the EPA did not shut them down.
They looked at the economics of compliance and to not continue production and sales of these conversions. This has as much (or more) to do with the cost of propane and low demand for LP conversion kits as the EPAs decision to require these companies to go through the standard certification procedure rather than allow the "fast track" certifications to stand forever. If propane were cheaper and the demand for kits was higher I suspect that more than one company would have chosen to re-certify their kit.

[cgoodwin]

"Private heated VO fuel stations are already operating Chris. I see no reason that ones open to the public would not work just as well. I agree that it is unlikely that we will see VO offerred at conventional fuel stations anytime soon...but dedicated and automated VO fuelling stations are well past the prototype stage."

So is hydrogen power and fuel cell technology. I hardly think "dedicated and automated VO fuelling stations are well past the prototype stage" if you can please let me and the rest of the world in on the secret I would love to know where they are, since they are "well past the prototype stage" maybe you can direct me to a map and the EPA, and DOT guidelines for their operation.

"I would like to resond to your comment "we run into the legality of fuel testing" but am not certain exactly what you mean by that. Can you clarify that statement?"

Well we have had this conversation many times but I will type it all again. Any fuel which enters commerce must undergoe EPA TI&II testing, in order for Vo to do this there will have to be a standard for the fuel, there is not. If we use the European standard Soy oil will fail on iodine value alone and be excluded as it is in Europe, so we know that will nto happen, so we will have to write our own and no one is jumping up to do that who has even the most vague idea what they are doing unless they are being very secretive about it, if they are then they are not serving their goal very well. We all know that VO used ina n unmodified vehicle will nto meet or exceed the emissions regs of diesel fuel, so the vehicle will have to be modified. This puts us back at the certification of systems step, which must clearly be crossed before the TI&II step can be taken. The EPA has made it very clear that each system by each manufacturer, for each engine family and each ECU will have to be individually tested and the cost of that is about $30k for each one. Once you do this you will still have to get the fuel certified for that vehicle which is about $2m and then there is the hurdle of offering the fuel only to those with certified systems, the tax collection, etc, etc.


"It seems that you are indicating that you believe that when oilseed crops are grown conventionally there is as much energy used as gained. It this correct?"

I am indicating that conventional production and refining of oil seed crops uses a great deal of energy.


"Technically the EPA did not shut them down.
They looked at the economics of compliance and to not continue production and sales of these conversions. This has as much (or more) to do with the cost of propane and low demand for LP conversion kits as the EPAs decision to require these companies to go through the standard certification procedure rather than allow the "fast track" certifications to stand forever. If propane were cheaper and the demand for kits was higher I suspect that more than one company would have chosen to re-certify their kit."

Technically, I love statements which begine this way, it is like saying "I am goign to strech the facts to meet my needs."

Yes the EPA did shut them down, they made it clear that each manufacturer of a system would have to go therough the same proceedure they have stated VO system producers will be required to go through (an they had an accepted fuel), the market was not large enough to justify the expense and the industry became all but extinct nearly overnight. I wager that you could put everyone runnig VO in ther cars in the US in a single sports stadium, hardly an economic force to be reconed with, if ti were they would already be regulating it through enforcement of existing laws and regulations.

I would love to lock arms and sing a greasy chorus of Koom by ya with you but I just don't see the numbers you clearly do, maybe you can enlighten me. Have a look at this http://www.google.com/trends?q=vegetable+oil%2C+biodiesel%2C+lovecraft%2 C+greasecar%2C+frybrid&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all

and this http://www.google.com/trends?q=boobs%2C+biodiesel%2C+global+warming%2C+i raq&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all

[dana linscott]

So is hydrogen power and fuel cell technology. I hardly think "dedicated and automated VO fuelling stations are well past the prototype stage"

You are comparing apples to oranges Chris.
In fact it is relativly simple to use only slightly modified "off the shelf" hardware and software used by large truck fleet operators currently.

maybe you can direct me to a map and the EPA, and DOT guidelines for their operation.
Sarcasm aside...no map of private high volume VO "stations" exists. For several very good reasons. But the DOT regs for VO fuel dispensing systems is nearly identical to that of those that pump diesel fuel.

we have had this conversation many times but I will type it all again. Any fuel which enters commerce must undergoe EPA TI&II testing, in order for Vo to do this there will have to be a standard for the fuel,

We have discussed this before but it was under the heading of "fuel certification" and not "the legality of fuel testing". I consider it a near non-issue. You obviously feel very differently.

I am indicating that conventional production and refining of oil seed crops uses a great deal of energy.
I agree...but the studies I have seen indicate an energy gain of +50-80%. This is very differnt from "squat" which I always understood to mean near zero.

Technically, I love statements which begine this way, it is like saying "I am goign to strech the facts to meet my needs."

I have no need to stretch the facts..and have not done so. Why the cheap shot?

the market was not large enough to justify the expense and the industry became all but extinct nearly overnight
Isn't that basically what I SAID?

I would love to lock arms and sing a greasy chorus of Koom by ya with you but I just don't see the numbers you clearly do, maybe you can enlighten me.

Maybe I can.
The future of VO conversion kit vendors is a different issue than the future of VO fuel. I can understand why your POV is not as positive as mine given the long uphill battle you have ahead and the major investment you will eventually have to make to stay in business once the EPA tell you "it is time to certify your kits". I also understand why you might feel that if the EPA does this to every vendor the VO fuel option will dissapear. It won't though.

The cost of certification is a huge expense for any VO kit vendor..but for those who use several million dollars of fuel each year it is a relativly small investment...far less than what they can save by switching to VO fuel. And if VO fuel is certified and a few engine conversions (that are widely used) are certified the EPA will not be any more concerned with those who convert their own engines for non commercial use than they are currently.

[cgoodwin]

Not apples or oranges Dana, but fruit-stands. You said:

"Private heated VO fuel stations are already operating Chris. I see no reason that ones open to the public would not work just as well. I agree that it is unlikely that we will see VO offerred at conventional fuel stations anytime soon...but dedicated and automated VO fuelling stations are well past the prototype stage."

Then you say that the secret network of "priviate high volume fueling stations" is kept secret for "good reasons" and is made of "Off the shelf parts". My fingers are just tingling as I type and visions of men in black suits soldering up copper pipes in vans with tinted windows across the midwest dance in my head. Secret ramps which open in the parking lots of mini-marts allowing semi trucks to be refueled in a fully automated subterranean station at a constant 55F.

"We have discussed this before but it was under the heading of "fuel certification" and not "the legality of fuel testing". I consider it a near non-issue. You obviously feel very differently."

Oh I am sorry, it was under a different heading so now the fact have changed, right, then, shall we move on to the situational reality section of the evening.

Propane: "Technically the EPA did not shut them down. (blah, blah)" then agreed that they changed the requiring certification, and that the certification was too expensive. How is that not shutting them down? "No sir I did not kill Mr.Linscott, I put him an a 55 gallon drum filled almost to the top with excrement and put the top on, he actually died of lack of oxygen."

In your last paragraph you claim to "Understand" how I feel but clearly you do not, try repeating everything I say back to me as a question, or saying "I hear you" to everything I say, then simply state what you wish to state as though you did not listen to a word I said, that is a fun exercise as well.

In that paragraph you make assumptions, seem to be reading the minds of the EPA and once again make statements based on your feelings but provide no facts. No Dana every kit vendor will not disappear, those selling pdf files of how to make parts from copper plumbing pipe will likely be excluded along with those who sell plans to build your jet from cardboard are exclude from the FAA requirements placed on plane manufacturers.

Again my statements are based on conversations with the EPA, yours are opinion based on... your feelings. If not then stop telling ghost stories and for just once post a fact or source, you are not some mysterious guy chain smoking in a basement carpark.

[dana linscott]

my statements are based on conversations with the EPA, yours are opinion based on

Conversations with the EPA as well. But yours appear to be focused on conversion kits mainly...mine are broader.

Oh I am sorry, it was under a different heading so now the fact have changed, right, then, shall we move on to the situational reality section of the evening.


No..you just referred to it in a different manner and I asked for a clarification to prevent further miscommunication..and now you seem to feel you have a right to switch from civil discussion to one closer to what DB might post. Why do you feel the facts have changed?

We agree certification will cost a substantial amount and require a bit of co-operationd from the legislature to accomplish. Do you feel that these present insurmountable obstacles? I certainly don't.

Then you say that the secret network of "priviate high volume fueling stations" is kept secret for "good reasons" and is made of "Off the shelf parts".

This is not what I said..though you obviously read a lot into what I DID say. Please don't. Doing so sets you imagination off and leads to making comments that make it appear you are more interested in picking a fight than useful conversation.

visions of men in black suits soldering up copper pipes in vans with tinted windows across the midwest dance in my head. Secret ramps which open in the parking lots of mini-marts allowing semi trucks to be refueled in a fully automated subterranean station at a constant 55F.


Then this is noting more than your imagination going wild.
The VO fuel dispensing facilities are nearly indistiguishable from diesel fuelling pumps. I beleive if you re-read my previous posts you will see I indicatred this. Since they are not open to the public..and it is counterproductive to clue competing fleet operators into the fuel change no one has bothered to make a map of them. Please try to curb yor imagination a bit. It just makes you seem sarcastic and un-civil when you allow it to drive your responses.

Propane: "Technically the EPA did not shut them down. (blah, blah)" then agreed that they changed the requiring certification, and that the certification was too expensive. How is that not shutting them down?

The fuel cost had much more to do with the choice than the EPA being directed to require re-study of the fast tracked fuels. The intention of the EPA was not to shut them down merely to require compliance with the CAA.

No sir I did not kill Mr.Linscott, I put him an a 55 gallon drum filled almost to the top with excrement and put the top on, he actually died of lack of oxygen."


A poor comparison Chris. A bettter comparison would be "He voluntarily climbed into the drum..and stayed there even though I explained that the top would be sealed in a few hours and he should find a way to continue to receive Oxygen if he planned to stay there once the lid was sealed. But he chose not to."

In your last paragraph you claim to "Understand" how I feel but clearly you do not,

Obviously....perhaps I cannot even imagine how you feel...which would have been a more accurate statement.


Again my statements are based on conversations with the EPA, yours are opinion based on... your feelings. If not then stop telling ghost stories and for just once post a fact or source

Chris...the difference between what you consider fact appears mostly to be based on if you are providing the info or someone you disagree with is.

And for some reason you seem to feel that this provides you with a valid excuse to respond with no measure of civility at all. By doing so you are stepping into the world of DB and Craig... who seem to be focused on picking fights rather than more productive goals.

We have some very important shared goals. If we can work together on them they have a greater chance of being achieved. If you can only respond with cheap shots and vitriol it does not encourage anyone to work with you.

I have attempted to not respond to you the way you are responding to me in the hope you will reign in your anger a bit. When I feel I can no longer do this I try to not hit the send button. I encourage you to try to do this as well.

[DieselBurps]

It's not anger Dana - it's frustration. It is exactly what most people experience when dealing with you. Chris is looking for hard facts and truth - while you are busy dancing around anything tangible with a lot of meaningless verbage. When pressed for facts - you go off about civility. When you are pushed for truth, you whine about unrelated subject matter. When your credentials are questioned, you either ignore the question, or concoct lame stories and lies. You want to feel important, you crave recognition - and you seem to think you deserve it and are "above" everyone else. Honestly - it is a sad joke that makes more of us laugh at you than appreciate your existence. The abuse you get on forums is all self-inflicted. You ask for it with your behavior.

[dana linscott]

Cigar posted in an unrelated discussion...

As for this "private filling stations" I believe they are a figment of your imagination. I cant see how it can be cost effective for trucking companies to go into the waste oil collection business and its associated headaches and costs. And how do they go about collecting so much oil without the renderers getting in a fit and exposing them? Furthermore, you just need one digruntled employee to spill the beans.

In short, hogwash


You may believe anything you want. But it is based on what you do not know or have not bothered to research rather than any actual understanding or knowledge you possess.

It is extremely cost effective for fleets who use thousands of gallons of fuel each day to collect and process WVO for fuel. They are not setting drums out back of restaraunts and using a Northern Tool water pump to collect for petes sake.

And they avoid "being exposed" by following the law. You obviously have no concept of what a commercial WVO collection and processing operations is like or that legitimate businesses might simply choose to comply with the law rather than try to save an additional 5-10% by choosing to NOT follow the law. Sheesh! You are applying small time concepts to big business...and THIS is why what I say makes no sense to you.

[Cigar]

Cigar posted in an unrelated discussion...



You may believe anything you want. But it is based on what you do not know or have not bothered to research rather than any actual understanding or knowledge you possess.

It is extremely cost effective for fleets who use thousands of gallons of fuel each day to collect and process WVO for fuel. They are not setting drums out back of restaraunts and using a Northern Tool water pump to collect for petes sake.

And they avoid "being exposed" by following the law. You obviously have no concept of what a commercial WVO collection and processing operations is like or that legitimate businesses might simply choose to comply with the law rather than try to save an additional 5-10% by choosing to NOT follow the law. Sheesh! You are applying small time concepts to big business...and THIS is why what I say makes no sense to you.


Well no crap Dana! I never said they were using small time collecting techniques, doesnt mean there isnt a cost involved that has to be taken into consideration. And how in the hell does compliance with the law prevents "exposure"? So are you saying if I decided to get permits for my bootleg bio-D business my secrecy will be protected? WTF kind of reasoning is that? Compliance with the law tends to make your operation VISIBLE....So even if it was cost-effective AND they were following the law regarding the collections and USE of the oil , there is no way they could maintain this "secret" from competitors forever. So why do you refuse to name trucking companies who are doing this? I suppose I could contact the Minnesota Trucking Association and members and see if they ever heard of this going on to do the "research" you say I should do, but I am not that intrigued. But I think it is because its a bunch of BS like the rest of the BS you spout.

[dana linscott]

I never said they were using small time collecting techniques, doesnt mean there isnt a cost involved that has to be taken into consideration.

No..but if you seriously researched this you would understand that the cost per gallon of collecting and processing large amounts of fuel is even lower than collecting and processing small amounts.

Compliance with the law tends to make your operation VISIBLE.

Actually it does not tend to make it any more visible than if you were not complying. Generally people do not see what they are not looking for. And unless brought to their attention "the competition" is not looking for any competitor to be using an alternative fuel as odd as VO. Most employees also do not fully comprehend it either and mistakenly believe that the fuel is "biodiesel".

So why do you refuse to name trucking companies who are doing this?

It has something to do with honoring contracts and the trust my clients put in me...and the fact that nothing useful would be gained by doing so.

I suppose I could contact the Minnesota Trucking Association and members and see if they ever heard of this going on to do the "research" you say I should do,[QUOTE] Nor would following that path actually provide the information you need to understand what is begin discussed here. It appears you do not have a clue about even to begin researching this either. Pity.
[QUOTE] I am not that intrigued. But I think it is because its a bunch of BS like the rest of the BS you spout. I think it is because you only posess the intellectual capacity to spout insults. Perhaps you lack the motivation to learn more and so it makes you feel smarter if you believe that no one else is more motivated than yourself. Perhaps if you WERE more motivated to learn you could provide more productive posts instead of the relativly unproductive ones like this that you seem to specialize in.

[Cigar]

No..but if you seriously researched this you would understand that the cost per gallon of collecting and processing large amounts of fuel is even lower than collecting and processing small amounts.

Actually it does not tend to make it any more visible than if you were not complying. Generally people do not see what they are not looking for. And unless brought to their attention "the competition" is not looking for any competitor to be using an alternative fuel as odd as VO. Most employees also do not fully comprehend it either and mistakenly believe that the fuel is "biodiesel".

It has something to do with honoring contracts and the trust my clients put in me...and the fact that nothing useful would be gained by doing so.

[QUOTE]I suppose I could contact the Minnesota Trucking Association and members and see if they ever heard of this going on to do the "research" you say I should do,[QUOTE] Nor would following that path actually provide the information you need to understand what is begin discussed here. It appears you do not have a clue about even to begin researching this either. Pity.
I think it is because you only posess the intellectual capacity to spout insults. Perhaps you lack the motivation to learn more and so it makes you feel smarter if you believe that no one else is more motivated than yourself. Perhaps if you WERE more motivated to learn you could provide more productive posts instead of the relativly unproductive ones like this that you seem to specialize in.



Its not a question of me to being "intellectual" enough, its a matter of knowing your track record of BS and FUD to not want to waste my time.

[dana linscott]

Its not a question of me to being "intellectual" enough, its a matter of knowing your track record of BS and FUD to not want to waste my time.

No..It is clearly that you have an ax to grind based on either the political disagreements that you and I have had in the past (similar to BD) and/or your unfamiliarity with what is being discussed. I am sure that you consider it a waste of time to research the available information..or ask for help in finding enough info to become familiar with what is beign discussed. Your choice to remiain ignorant of the facts does not equatre to what you do not undertand or agree with beign FUD or BS.

Can you point ot any USEFULL info in posts you have provided? Or do YOU have a track record of simply posting insults and taunts in efforts to pick fights? If not I am not any more willing to waste my time in petty skirmishes with you than I am with BD or Ron..who have a similar track record.

[Cigar]

No..It is clearly that you have an ax to grind based on either the political disagreements that you and I have had in the past (similar to BD) and/or your unfamiliarity with what is being discussed. I am sure that you consider it a waste of time to research the available information..or ask for help in finding enough info to become familiar with what is beign discussed. Your choice to remiain ignorant of the facts does not equatre to what you do not undertand or agree with beign FUD or BS.

Can you point ot any USEFULL info in posts you have provided? Or do YOU have a track record of simply posting insults and taunts in efforts to pick fights? If not I am not any more willing to waste my time in petty skirmishes with you than I am with BD or Ron..who have a similar track record.


"Useful Information"? You mean like this post:? http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7476

Or this very thread where you kick up dust and provide no facts except your pompous verbal diahrhea and then you run away like a little scared schoolgirl when Chris asked you some pointed questions? I have had my run-ins with Chris, but Im on his side in this one. (How about that Chris!)

What contributions have you made to the VO community lately?

I still think your so-called fleet business is BS, Its easy to find the trucking companies in MN and make some calls. And even if it is true, wouldnt it be a hoot to inform the competition? Now, I wont do that as I wouldnt stoop to your level, but after all you are willing to trash other businesses with no facts to support your trashing. So turnabout is fair play. Sure, you said send a PM, but if you are willing to publicly trash someone, be a man and state why publicly.. What a loser...

[DieselBurps]

No..It is clearly that you have an ax to grind based on either the political disagreements that you and I have had in the past (similar to BD)
It's just a guess, but I think you are attempting to refer to me here. Either dyslexia or JB (or JD) has gotten the best of your ability with those pesky letters.

Your political leanings aren't the reason I have an issue with you. Your blatant disregard for the truth is one. You've been trapped in so many lies, it's impossible to tell when you are telling the truth. Most of your postings are for boosting your ego - which is a step up from pimping your plans, but it still gets old. Whenever you are pushed for details on one of your tall stories, you either ignore it or drift off. That doesn't make the questions go away - it tends to show that you are unable to defend your statements.

[mrbenz7]

so i take it your testimonial is not on his web site? why not?
where in nor-cal are you. if you are in chico i would be willing to help you out with a conversion. no charge just help, not trying to get buisness!
will Nothing but good testimonials are ever on his website! If you have problems or complaints, your blocked and deleted! :mad: :rolleyes: This is the worst system ever and it shows like the awful hack job it is. Metal shaving ground up the fuel injection pump and destroyed it. Why this idiot hasn't been prosecuted by now is beyone me!:mad:

This is a travesty to good veggie oil conversions out there that take the time to use good quality parts and follow up with good quality customer service.:(
LOVECRAFT is NOT recommended for Mercedes Benz or anything else you care about. :D This man has put many classic Mercedes Benz's directly into wrecking yards!:eek: