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View Full Version : Filtering with Baking Soda and Salt


bigkylewhite
11-24-2005, 11:18 PM
Forrest Gump (on the Greasecar forum) has been doing tests with mixing his WVO with baking soda and salt to aid in dewatering and pulling out any suspended fatty stuff. I got some pretty nasty looking WVO here a while back and thought I'd give this idea a try. I've attached a few pictures at the bottom of this post.

Pic one (pudding) is a pic of the WVO which has been sitting in a plastic barrel for about a month. It is literally the consistency of cool butter. I had to shovel it out of the barrel with a long pole. I warmed this pudding-like WVO in a saucepan and then filtered it through several coffee filters.

The pic titled warmfilter is the WVO which has been filtered and is still very warm. It looks pretty clear but I could still see some small particles floating in it.

Pic #3 titled roombns is the WVO at room temperature. I added 2 tbsp of baking soda and 2 tbsp of salt to the very warm WVO, mixed it real well, then let it sit for a couple of hours until it was room temperature. This picture shows a white sludge-like substance at the bottom of the jar. I scooped some of this sludge out of the jar to look at it and it looks like FAT.

I've set the jar of clean WVO out in the garage overnight to see what it looks like after a night of 30* weather. So far, looks pretty promising.

Tom Yaz
11-25-2005, 03:04 AM
If this is saponification, that is wonderful!

What I find interesting about using BS instead of lye is that when I use
lye, I do get solids at the bottom, but unfortunately the saponified fats also
appears to be emulsified with the oil as well, and that is not a good thing if
you are running straight WVO.

I tried this baking soda trick on some oil that I had previously filtered and
drained off the "creamy" fats that had settled. The BS appears to have
done nothing but settle when I stirred it into warm wvo. I havent drained it
off and touched it to see if it has soaps in it, but it appears to have none.

My oil is looks clear at cold temps too. So I guess I have some good stuff.

BrianMillerForrestGump
11-27-2005, 03:18 AM
using baking soda and salt works..

Badfish740
11-27-2005, 03:54 AM
I'm extremely interested. What are we talking in terms of proportions for a 55 gallon batch of oil? In any event, rock salt and baking soda are cheap, I'm just curious about large batches if you need ounces or pounds of the stuff.

BrianMillerForrestGump
11-27-2005, 04:37 AM
http://www.veggieburner.com/forumpages/ph.htm
i think all my pics are here. i fill the bottom of a 55 gal. drum with salt. and add 12 lbs of B/s from sams club ($5.00) heat to 100 or 150 and let stand for 24 hours..add salt and b/s as needed. clean the bottom out every once in awhile. heavy stuff on bottom.

Badfish740
11-27-2005, 05:35 AM
I tried copying and pasting the link but no dice...

Friar Fewell
11-27-2005, 06:12 AM
Welcome Forrest. I was hoping you'd show up.

BrianMillerForrestGump
11-27-2005, 07:46 AM
the link should work i just clicked on it. but you can go to www.veggieburner.com and then click on the old forum button and then click ph
http://www.veggieburner.com/forumpages/forum%20talk.htm

pquevill
11-27-2005, 06:16 PM
I use it to and just cleaned out my bottom of my filter tank. Alot of gunk and sludge and a few pellets. I drained it out into a cubbie and then kept the same salt in and added a bit more to start out again. After the last 3 batches (150 gals), it has passed the hot pan test with flying colors. The last hot pan test I thought I screwed up becuase there was no bubbles. I redid another sample and got 1 to pop up. Before, with out the salt, I would get less than 10 bubbles. This after only heating once the day I filter and settle for one week. Then I reheat and move over to my holding barrel or into my tank.

I don't use the BS route as my oil is pretty clean and amber clear. It is only used for 2 days at the local KofC for their fish fry nights. I did get a cubbie with bacon grease mixed in once and it did clear it up.
Q

BrianMillerForrestGump
11-28-2005, 02:28 AM
hey let me know about your test. i never tested the stuff on the bottom. i didnt find a need to. i just use the great looking stuff on top.

BrianMillerForrestGump
11-28-2005, 03:25 AM
Ceiii, (all I need is some Methanol to start making Bio.)
not sure about that. but what if you mix with diesel or gas. if what you end up with works the same way it would be cheeper..all i was trying to do was make cleaner WVO so we could cut our switch over time down.

BrianMillerForrestGump
11-28-2005, 05:42 AM
ceii, what i am working on and doing today is. on my 83-300sd straight veggie. it is getting to cold for the veggie. today i am replacing my top rad. hose. i built a HIH copper heat exchanger to replace the top rad hose. from there to my lift pump i am installing a glow plug heater, and after that i have a wrap around band heater for my fuel filter. it gets veggie to 120 degrees. if this don't help i will start adding gas to my veggie..by the way no heat in my tank yet.or fuel lines.

Badfish740
11-28-2005, 08:15 PM
Ok, I'm possibly an idiot but I'm still not totally grasping the salt filtration process as of yet. From what I gather you are circulating the veggie through a layer of salt in the bottom of the barrel and then eventually filtering it. How thick is the layer of salt? 6", 12", etc...? Are you adding baking soda to the mix at all or have you just done this on small scale tests? How often do you change the salt? Also, that Harbor Freight pump, is that just a clear water pump or was it meant for oil/diesel use? In the words of the comedian Godfrey - "C'mon, faster kids help the slow kids."

Thanks,

Matt

pquevill
11-28-2005, 10:31 PM
I pour a bag in at settling (40 lbs?), add WVO and stir for a few minuets and let settle (mine is for a week because of my travels). The water will atract to the salt thus speeding the process of dewatering. Baking Soda helps clear up the FFA by attracting it to the bottom. For whatever reasons, it is clearer and less suspended water present during the hot pan test. It only cost a couple of bucks and works well for me. You must also add heat by bringing it up to 100 degrees which is standard practice anyway.

After a few gallons (in my case, 150 gallons), I sucked the dreges out and there was still appx 75% of the salt pellets left. I then added a 1/3 of a bag and then poured fresh WVO back in. FG processes twice as much as me and has used more. I do fill the settle tank through a blue jean sock filter so that could be why mine last longer. If your looking at inches, then figure a good one layer of salt pellets ( 1-2")
Q

dana linscott
11-28-2005, 10:56 PM
using baking soda and salt works..

What exactly are you claiming it does?
And what tests have you done to confirm it?

Making comments like the one above misleads newbies into thinking you have tested salt and BS as both fat precipitating and suspended water removing methods and found them safe and effective. But I have never seen you present anything that indicates you have in fact tested them in any way vaguely resembling scinetific methodology. Most of what I have seen you post on the subject is on the order of " I had a hunch..so I mixed this up and it looks like it works."

If I have missed something please post it here.

Badfish740
11-28-2005, 11:10 PM
No offense to BrianMillerForrestGump or pquevill, but I don't know if their system works. However I will test it, test the resulting VO, and decide whether or not I want to use it in my vehicle. They never said that there was an ironclad moneyback guarantee that it worked. They're simply sharing what seem to be successful findings with the rest of us. I don't take anyone's word as gospel truth-not even yours Dana. If you're dumb enough to take an idea from the internet and stake a $20,000 vehicle on it with nothing but blind faith as reassurance, you deserve what you get. If people are destroying their vehicles with snake oil WVO systems, or processes, or whatever, tough luck. It's their fault for now using the grey matter that God gave them. If you pay attention to my posts you'll see that I don't even own a diesel vehicle, but I ask questions, I experiment, and I'll be damn sure of what I'm doing before I actually do it.

I'm not trying to call you out but you're frequently the first one to say "don't try to reinvent the wheel" when it comes to new ideas. As far as I'm concerned, we only have a vauge idea of what this particular wheel looks like at this point and we're all trying to come up with the best one. All of us should be trying to innovate in one way or another, naturally the best and the brightest will come up with the best systems, and eventually we'll all be using them. Right now we're just at the point where a lot of people are guessing and a few are making breakthroughs. None of us are scientists or have the benefit of research labs, but we're all trying to build the proverbial "better mousetrap." In short, if it works, great-if not, oh well. If you blow up your car using it, that sucks-be a little more careful next time. Or better yet tuck your nuts between your legs, pay $2.39 a gallon for diesel and like it.

ElktonJohn
11-29-2005, 02:10 AM
Sorry to be like this but something is really rubbing me wrong here, normally I'd call it my bull***t detecter. I apologise for the vulgarity yet I hope the sentiment is clear...I am having a hard time seeing anything usefull in this thread, some interesting ideas and some possible uses for salt and baking soda but, unlike the average thread, there is nothing here to suggest anything beyond conjecture. Usually when someone posts an idea here it is based on a concept already established and proven...an improvement or a logical extension for instance. When someone finds a new idea without such a basis already established he/she at least provides the basis upon which that new idea has been built, as it should be with all things of a scientific nature. Badfish, your statement that none of us are scientists here is likely incorrect. I remember my piddly 2 semesters of college chemestry, physics, geology, calculus et al ad finatum and I'm an under-achiever on this board so please don't try to justify allowing bad science to be treated here as anything more then what it really is...unsubstantiated conjecture. If there is substance here in this line of experimentation and observation then someone will find it, substantiate it and build it into a new paradigm...but I doubt it will go any further then idle chat and cleaver notion. That's only my opinion of course but in the meantime, as other minds digest and filter the data from this thread, let me personally wish that one day you will actually own a diesel, take a leap and try this hair brained idea for yourself, perhaps then you will be able to speak from experience with your nuts so safely tucked. Have a nice day...

BrianMillerForrestGump
11-29-2005, 04:23 AM
salt and B/s cleans the wvo and saves you on filters......Just try it, it works. you will save money on filters. they last alot longer.as long as you don't try and filter the nasty stuff on the bottom. How do you know any of this stuff works. when someone told you that you can run a truck/car and used french fry grease...what was your first thought? I thought what the heck. bought a $18,000.00 truck and tried it. WOW you can run a truck on grease, oh and a generator too, and a fuel oil boiler to heat your swimming pool. now who would of believed that. Not me.. even the bio-diesel sounds like it doesn't work to be. but i heard you can make fuel out of beans..

ceiii2000
11-29-2005, 09:16 AM
Your right "Everything that can be invented has already been invented." Mr. Charles Duell, 1899

So one last addition then I'm done. I could not get water to "suspend" in new oil. I capped off a container and agitated the heck out of it. I got free water, as noted by the 'pan test' but two hours later nothing. My opinion is that baking soda/salt MAY remove or change something in nasty WVO, fatty acids, long carbon chains, something, that 'holds' the water in suspension. I will continue to experiment.

Badfish740
11-29-2005, 09:20 AM
Sorry to be like this but something is really rubbing me wrong here, normally I'd call it my bull***t detecter. I apologise for the vulgarity yet I hope the sentiment is clear...I am having a hard time seeing anything usefull in this thread, some interesting ideas and some possible uses for salt and baking soda but, unlike the average thread, there is nothing here to suggest anything beyond conjecture.

On a board where most posts start as "Hey do you think X will work for filtering/dewatering/etc...?" Conjecture is most of what this is. Beyond Chris and Dana very few people post anything that says "Do this, this, and this and wal'la, you're in WVO heaven."

Usually when someone posts an idea here it is based on a concept already established and proven...an improvement or a logical extension for instance. When someone finds a new idea without such a basis already established he/she at least provides the basis upon which that new idea has been built, as it should be with all things of a scientific nature

This is a logical extension. It is a new idea in the area of filtration. If Brian had said "fill your drum with WVO and add eye of newt and wing of bat, then cast a dewatering spell," I'd be a little more skeptical. However, salt and baking soda seems like a viable idea.

Badfish, your statement that none of us are scientists here is likely incorrect. I remember my piddly 2 semesters of college chemestry, physics, geology, calculus et al ad finatum and I'm an under-achiever on this board so please don't try to justify allowing bad science to be treated here as anything more then what it really is...unsubstantiated conjecture.

Ok, so by your set of parameters the fact I began college (one full year) as a civil engineering major that qualifies me to make educated observations on the construction of a bridge or a dam?

If there is substance here in this line of experimentation and observation then someone will find it, substantiate it and build it into a new paradigm...but I doubt it will go any further then idle chat and cleaver notion.

And it might turn into something useful-that's my point.

That's only my opinion of course but in the meantime, as other minds digest and filter the data from this thread, let me personally wish that one day you will actually own a diesel, take a leap and try this hair brained idea for yourself, perhaps then you will be able to speak from experience with your nuts so safely tucked. Have a nice day...

Well let me personally apologize for being in college and as a result, poor. I'm currently saving money (ING Orange Savings accounts are great btw) and hopefully upon graduation this May I'll have enough scraped up to buy a '96 or '97 Dodge Ram to convert. I first heard of WVO as a fuel about two years ago and now that I'm relatively close to actually having a diesel vehicle in my possession I'm doing all the research I can. My boss has been kind enough to let me use an old diesel (Yanmar) trash pump at work as a test mule to fool around with blends and whatnot.

John, I'm sure that you think I'm some giant, flaming, trolling, @$$hole, but sometimes this board seems a little counterproductive and I felt like saying something about it. The Infopop forums are much more loose and people are willing to listen. Maybe since my presence is so offensive to you I should just post there from now on.

JeffNLisa
11-29-2005, 11:47 AM
Chris and Dana have more experience than everyone else on the board put together, I should think. And that experience had certainly taught them that things which may seem one way in the beginning ultimately turn out another way. Things that seem to work in the beginning lead to other problems later.

And some things that seem as though they wouldn't work, ultimately are refined until they do.

To my knowledge, FG has never stated anything except what he has done. And Dana is doing what we all depend on him to do, which is continuing to question for science, evidence, experience, etc.

I have only heard of the salt & soda method in the last few weeks, because to my knowledge, that's about how long anyone has been doing it. A month and 5,000 miles, while it IS the only place to START, does not make for long-term research.

Info has been asked of several people who are trying it to see if the oil has
A) failed a test for water before, and then
B) passed a test for water after.

Salt/Soda may prove to be a wonderul break-through in speeding de-watering of WVO. Most everything we're doing here today burning waste oil as fuel would have seemed preposterous to us just a few years ago. And nearly EVERY scientific and technological break-though ever discovered, started as someone's CRAZY idea.

I don't think Dana is trying to condemn it as a dumb idea; he has no hesitation saying so on things when he feels that way. Not trying to speak for Dana, just giving my opinion.

If Salt/Soda does prove useful, and tests DO show it effective, and long term use DOES show that it won't damage the car in any way, wonderful.

People just need to KNOW if that has been done or if it hasn't. Or be aware of such if they are going to try it themselves.

BrianMillerForrestGump
11-29-2005, 12:48 PM
if i can i will try to add a pic here. if i can't i will give the link. but my question is. if you are really concerned about the wvo you put in your car/truck. why not use good clean stuff?
both of these started out as the same wvo..
<img src="http://www.veggieburner.com/oil.jpg">
http://www.veggieburner.com/oil.jpg

Badfish740
11-29-2005, 02:08 PM
Salt/Soda may prove to be a wonderul break-through in speeding de-watering of WVO. Most everything we're doing here today burning waste oil as fuel would have seemed preposterous to us just a few years ago. And nearly EVERY scientific and technological break-though ever discovered, started as someone's CRAZY idea.


That's all I'm trying to say. If I came off as a real d!ck I apologize, that's just my nature. On this subject in particular I get a little touchy because I'm honestly tired of hearing people who know little to nothing about WVO (friends, relatives, people who I approach about obtaining WVO) say "Oh that's rediculous, you'll blow up your car, just suck it up and pay for diesel!" It's not a lot different than the attitude of a lot of people here. If Chris and Dana aren't doing it, it must not work...

dana linscott
11-29-2005, 03:01 PM
As those who have contacted me know I encourage experimentation.

I discourage those experimenting with new stuff to declare "IT WORKS" after little or not testing. It misleads newbies into thinking it has been tested in some way. When I have tested an idea and found that it in fact does not work as claimed I tend to be a bit more strong in my cautions. I tested BS and salt years ago. Nearly any particulate will speed settling of heavy fats. BS, sand, etc. No chemical reaction need take place..it is simply the particle forming a nucleus around which fat and fatlike crystals can form.

I have not issued a caution about using BS to speed fat settling.

However when FG began encouraging newbies to use salt to dewater wvo I issued a caution that it does not work as he was claiming since I am incapable of standing by and watching folks new to wvo fuel be mislead into damaging their engine. I simply disagree with:

If you're dumb enough to take an idea from the internet and stake a $20,000 vehicle on it with nothing but blind faith as reassurance, you deserve what you get.

Mainly because regardless of what actually damages an engine run on VO fuel the general public will atribute it to the VO. Since I would truely like to see VO/PO as a serious fuel alternative in the future "allowing" folks to be mislead into a situation that may needlessly damage their engine (and pocketbook) is an unacceptable option for me.

when someone told you that you can run a truck/car and used french fry grease...what was your first thought? I thought what the heck. bought a $18,000.00 truck and tried it.

And you tend to treat everyone as if they should have the same cavalier attitude. I thought ..."I wonder if there are any long term problems that might crop up?" and "I wonder if there is anyone that has been doing this for along time?" and " What happens when the temeprature drops?"

But I NEVER thought "What the heck" :rolleyes: ..and dumped wvo into a $18,000 truck. And I sure never encouraged anyone else to either!

So..I agree that many things including Baking Soda will encourage more rapid fat settling. I agree because I have tested it using cautious methodology. I also disagree that salt will thoroughly dewater wvo for the same reason.

BrianMillerForrestGump
11-29-2005, 03:12 PM
not sure what was said there. but baking soda and salt works...... it helps clean and DEWATER wvo..now i know of at least 25 of us that have been using it for 6 weeks and me with 7000 miles so far.so in 6 years we will all let you know if it hurt or engines.. so far so good. after adding B/S and salt to WVO heat to 100 let sit for 24 hours filter twice through 5 micron filter and do the stove test. but then again i have alot of people tell me that the 200 gallons of WVO i collect and filter everyweek is great clean dewater stuff. i guess.. from 7 different places. all i can tell you is. 54,000 veggie miles on the $18,000.00 truck so far. and i will keep everyone updated even if it breaks.

Badfish740
11-29-2005, 04:30 PM
I'm officially bowing out of this one, but not before I say this:

GIVE GUMP A CHANCE!!!